View Full Version : Tattoos
I know we have done this one before, but that was before the revamp of the site. What are everybody's views on Tats? Should we have to cover them? Who decides what is tasteful or appropriate? What is the perception of the public?
I personnally think that they are great. Visible or not. I'm still kicking around a full sleeve, but right now only have the left side down to my elbow. We'll see what the future brings!!
firemedic301
05-25-08, 11:27
I have NO problem with Tats OFF duty!!!! I think if you go below your elbow they should be covered. I have a tat, but it is not visible with my uniform on. I have heard the argument that half the people out there are possibly offended and half aren't (WHY view it as ACCEPTABLE to knowingly offend anybody in our business???). Tradition is tradition and I like people thinking Firemen are clean cut all-american guys. I was told something years ago that stuck with me and that was "preception is 9/10's of the law" and I would like to see "US" viewed in a positive light not as some Tatted out "BAD ASSES" They might be "Bitchen" in the gym or your local "Tap-out" areana. Even though shows like Miami Ink and the rest of the shows are making it "Main Stream", I say NOT in our line of work. I worked with a guy in County Fire in Adelanto when it was 105 degrees one day and he was wearing a long sleeve class B shirt and when I razzed him about it he said he was sleeved out and didn't think it was PROFESSIONAL to fly the tats in the Fire Service I had a HUGE amount of respect for him after that. I know I will get grief over this because T-Bone and the rest are on the board, and I work with ya but my personal feelings are from the elbow down COVER them. WE work for the TAX payers and MOST of them still view them as "DIRTY BIKER, GANG or PRISON THINGS". Like it or not that is my honest opinion (I don't feel that way, but I am talking about the public perception)!!! And if you have them on your legs wear pants. Again this isn't the RIV or your local gym it is your work and their are RESPONSIBILITIES and PERCEPTIONS that go along with this GREAT job.
Just my .02 cents
301,
I see your point of public perception and agree for the most part. The one that I plan on getting on the back of my wrist is gonna be pretty simple and easily concealed. As far as getting the full sleeve....I don't think I'll even be able to get that by the homefront committee:mad: Like I said...we'll see.
Wow firemedic 301, 2 cents? more like a quarter but I like it. I myself have a few tattoos, and for the most part I agree with you. My problem with tats is this, they DON'T make you a "BADASS". Seems to me that lots of dudes on this job have been getting tats to make them appear to be tough or a so called badass. We're there to help people, not show them how cool or tough we are. And trust me, when we show up on a big "red" truck or engine for a medical aid or jump off all turned out for a worker.... They know.
Also, the one that cracks me up is the guy that works for private ambulance that has the big ole' fire department tat hanging out of his sleeve or on his forearm. I know you've seen "that guy".
As for covering them up, my opinion is this and it might be a bit of a double standard, if you had them before you got on and your department is cool with it, then fine. But if you choose to get all badass and go below the elbow after you got hired, cover them up. Be a professional at work and a tough guy when you get off in the morning. Even then, remember you represent your department off duty as well.
By the way, any regrets for the guys that got the "BAD BOY CLUB" fireman tat in the early 90's?;)
VIVA
firemedicmatt
06-13-08, 08:44
LOS ANGELES WEEKLY, June 12, 2008
LOS ANGELES FIREFIGHTERS FUME OVER "NO SHOW" TATTOO POLICY
by Christine Pelisek
Some city firefighters are fuming over the Los Angeles Fire Department's new “no show” tattoo policy. The policy as of May 1 forbids tattooed firefighters from exposing their ink in public. That means firefighters who have tattoos on their arms need to cover up with long-sleeve shirts, and those who have tattoos on their necks have to wear bandages.
The policy has raised the ire of tatted out firefighters – some former soldiers - who believe they are being unfairly targeted by brass.
“After 20 years I am no longer considered professional by my fire department, just like that,” said LAFD firefighter/diver John O'Connor. “Every piece of 'work' that I have is either blood family or fire service family. I have always displayed them proudly, and to be made to cover them up is weird. This was disheartening to me. My pride has been bl*wn away.”
The policy affects around 200 firefighters with visible tattoos that cannot be covered by the standard uniform, says O'Connor. So now, firefighters are covering up with long-sleeve shirts and track pants to work out, and wearing bandages or skin patches where the shirt doesn't cover.
According to sources, management has told fire captains their necks are on the line if they don't enforce the policy.
Los Angeles Fire Department spokesperson Chief Ronnie Villanueva said that the policy isn't personal -- it's about professionalism and how the public perceives the department.
Others have argued that some firefighters have gone beyond “a couple” of tattoos to full-bl*wn tattoos on their heads and necks, or tattooed numbers that could be misconstrued as being gang-affiliated.
However, some firefighters say that it has precious little to do with public perception and more to do with the “old guard” who have complained to management about the increase in body art over the years.
Solutions have been batted around between the firefighters' union -- UFLAC -- and management for years. Union representatives argued that a no-show policy wasn't realistic and suggested having members cover up only those tattoos that were offensive to the public. Last summer, the two parties agreed to hire an independent arbiter to make recommendations. The fact finder ruled in favor of the union, but, according to union VP Jon McDuffie, the department implemented its own ideas.
“A lot of the guys offended by the tattoos are members of our department,” says McDuffie. “Is that enough to call people 'unprofessional' and throw up these unilateral policies?” He says dozens of complaints have been filed since the crackdown began on May 1.
hottie4fire
06-14-08, 00:18
That's to bad that the LA guys have to cover their tattoos. I don't think that it makes firefighters less professional.
What makes them less professional is when they treat us AMR employees bad.
What makes them less professional is when they treat us AMR employees bad.
WTF!:confused:
sansoofireman
06-14-08, 11:48
What makes them less professional is when they treat us AMR employees bad.
When AMR employees look and act professional, we treat them with respect and actually get excited when they show up on scene. They know who they are. When AMR employees complain, act unprofessionally, don't want to transport the patient (What? It's like being a cop and not wanting to arrest people!), we don't treat them bad or poorly, but we don't fall over ourselves trying to be nice to them either. We are not "less professional."
I was talking with one of my Chiefs lately and the topic of conversation turned to recent hires. A lot of firefighters over the last 10 years or so have been from out of the area. Not a lot of local guys. And not a lot of AMR employees that we work with all the time, know their work ethic, and trust their judgement. Every department has hired someone who can pass an agility, pass a background, and pass probation. Then their true colors come out. We see private medics' true colors all the time. We want someone who we want around for 25-30 years. I say we get back to hiring local folks who've proven themselves already.
What the hell were we talking about? Oh yeah... Tats. I say screw it. I'd rather have a tatted-out firefighter taking care of me who loved his job and was a professional than someone without tats who was an idiot with an attitude.
Just my $0.02
firemedic301
06-14-08, 16:22
That about somes it up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
X2
UNBELIEVABLE!!!! The Union won arbitration and the City is still sticking it to them!! I smell a law suit coming on! This will be interesting.....
Scars are tatoos with better stories.................
What's the big deal with the tattoos. Do they really offend anyone or are people out there just stereo typing. As far as someone thinking that they are a bad *BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP* because they have one, then that person is an idiot and didn't get a tattoo for the right reasons. I have a couple of tattoos ,and they show a little. (Ok they show a lot).
I don't think I can recall ever being treated different for having them. If you are offended by my tattoos then deal with it, because there is a good chance that there is something about you that offends someone else. If you have a tattoo and are afraid to show it than maybe you should not have gotten it. So the next time you see someone with a tattoo, ask about it. Most tattoos have a good story or a reason.
If it comes down to me having to wear long sleeves, I may as well just get "sleeved!"
Great point T-boner! Think of it this way if you were to pretend for a minute someone didnt have a tattoo or tattoos would your opinion of them change? Or do any of you really think that a person who is totally professional and a great employee, then gegts a tattoo or you find out they have a tattoo then all of a sudden the turn to a piece s*#t. Who cares if they are tatted out or sleeved up look at who they are as a person or as a firefighter. Can they do there job and do it well if so then all of you who think tats are unprrfessional are retarded because tats dont make a person unprofesional, a person acting like an idiot makes them unprofessional.
firemedic301
06-17-08, 11:03
I think IMO we are getting off track. I don't think ANYBODY in here is OFFENDED by tats!!!! It ALL boils down to the fact of PUBLIC PRECEPTION and PUBLIC IMAGE!!!! Plain and simple, and the PERCEPTION of the people who write the SOP's, SOG's, MOU's. "THEIR" PRECEPTION is really ALL that matters in the end, at least for 5,10,15 years from now when the Tatted out nation starts making the RULES & REGS. Like it or not TAX PAYERS and ADMIN make the DECISIONS and if you KNOW/KNEW PRIOR to getting SLEEVED out or anything below the elbow that THEY don't like them and you still do it then DON'T piss and moan when a policy comes out telling you to cover them up. Again if you haven't heard it before "preception is 9/10's of the law" that is a fact. Tats are becoming more main stream but, doesn't mean middle to upper class tax-payers want them on their BELOVED FIREMAN!!! Again just my opinion. I know the people inside the tats and RESPECT you guy's but the general public rarely get a chance to know us.
Would love to have seen how this thread would spin if it was the ARSON DOG handler was sleeved out and was causing a ruckus over it????? The linch mob would be out, just a thought:eek:;)
Why is it ok if the tattoo stays above the elbow? It either shows or it doesnt show that should be the bottom line. If it goes to the elbow it will still show, most people shirts dont go down to their elbow. Anyway I do agree with you about it is up too the one making the policies. But that still doesnt make it right. What about people who shave their heads and all of a sudden one of the policy makers decides that looks unproffesional and makes you look like a skin head. Is it right to make a policiy that says you cant shave your head? Just something to think about:confused: Where do the policies end? How about they focus on making policy and disciplinary actions based on making the fire service a better place to work, and not make everyone look alike and act like robots. last time I checked we are all adults and most of will make the right decisions. For those of us who dont deal with it then and punish them not everyone.
firemedic301
06-17-08, 14:40
I say the elbow because I think that to me that is the line from SEMI-DISCRETE to BLATANT. As for the shaved head policy I think you are semi-right. Where is that line and who is drawing it? is the question and my thing is if a Fireman works for a dept that he KNOWS the TAT thing is in the RADAR of the administration in a negative light and STILL chooses to get a 3/4 or full sleeve and has the attitude of "F$#@ the administration I don't care what they think, I'm doing it anyway", than when a policy comes down to cover them up remember it was YOUR CHOICE.
Like it or not there is a fairly decent reason Dept's have dress and groomig standard - PUBLIC IMAGE, PUBLIC IMAGE, PUBLIC IMAGE, oh ya and a little SAFETY mixed in!!!!
Again, I am not here voicing my personal opinion about TATTOO's, just what we ALL know is the GENERAL public opinion on BLATANT or OFFENSIVE tat's. AGAIN it boils down to middle and upper class taxpayers, City Cousel members, Fire Administration that is who are the policy makers in the end......
Show me a Male Fireman all gothed out with black eye shadow, black lip stick, a pierced nose and lip, 10 earrings in each ear, hair in a foot long ponytail, and black nail polish and then ask where should we draw the line, because the picture I just painted in your brain was in a way the same thing people that are offended by tattoos think when they see BLATANT or OFFENSIVE tats.
Just saying WE DO have a different PUBLIC IMAGE then most people out there!!! Like it or not, that is the way it is, and I am WAY proud and honored to have this job and up hold that IMAGE that soooo many Fireman before us have created.
P.S. I absolutely LOVE and RESPECT my TATTOOed friends and Co-workers but again it is what it is, and until there are some Tat'd out BC's, DC's, Chiefs, Counsel members that UNDERSTAND where you are coming from you will have an uphill battle for acceptance in THIS profession as a whole.
What makes a tattoo offensive????
If I have to cover up my tattoos, then fine, but don't be so closed minded. I don't get them to say F@*& the Admin. I get them for my reasons and my reasons only. If you want to draw a line then when you are at the river don't wear you fire hat, take off your fire stickers and don't let anyone know you are a fireMAN, Because I and everyone around you can now see your Tattoo showing that you have been hiding all along. I know that policies will be made for me to cover them up, but is it right. To show that I am a professional I will cover them up and still do my job to the best of my ability.
P.S. I still respect you and you are a good friend. This is not a direct attack at you it is simply an example.
firemedic301
06-17-08, 16:59
You have a very valid point about the River, however if the people that frequent the River were making OUR policies, dress and Grooming standard codes TATTOO's, Thongs, Tank tops, and Pastees would be the norm and I will leave that to your mental visions.
For the record I know your mind set was NOT F%$# the Admin I am just being the Devils Advocate;)
P.S. I will see at ART JUNKIES tomorrow:D have to go to WFO motorsports to get my new rims mounted with new shoes for the Green Machine Perris FirePoliceMX race is next Monday night 3:30 to 9:00 for any of you RIDERS out there.
So let me throw a kink into this LAFD policy. What happen if you have a person that happens to have a tat of perminit lip linner or eye shadow?? How do you make them cover that up? Or is that tat ok??? Just alittle pot sturring!
firemedic301
06-18-08, 08:18
So let me throw a kink into this LAFD policy. What happen if you have a person that happens to have a tat of perminit lip linner or eye shadow?? How do you make them cover that up? Or is that tat ok??? Just alittle pot sturring!
Welcome aboard SOBIE, now let's address this one because it is an EASY one. Departments WON'T make them cover them up because most likely we are talkin about WOMEN as we ALL know they have the magic card of HARRASSMENT or DISCRIMINATION that they (some of them) can/do pull out at a moments notice!!!! So most likely that issue is a mute point. That is not my opinion, just how I think Admin will look at it behind the scenes.:eek:
There that is how to stir the pot.
I call Bs on that one if they do that then they are opening themselves up for a lawsuit by those that are made to cover up their tattoos. I know I would if I had to cover up my tat while someone else gets to walk around with theirs showing. Regardless of how anyone feels about tats the policy in all fairness to every one should be either cover them or not. If you start making exceptions for one person whether they are male or female then you have to start making exceptions for everyone. As for your post earlier about if it goes to your elbow then it ok I call Bs on that too again it either shows or it doesn’t, and again if a city makes a policy that say you have to cover your tattoos up then regardless of where it is, or how much of it shows your still going to have to cover it up. Besides until the policy is made there is no point of any speculating on what the policy will be. My crew and I have had several discussions with our Deputy Chief regarding this matter since it affects three people on my crew alone and they are not sure what their going to do yet. As mentioned above they are trying to figure out how they are going to write the policy. They are still discussing whether or not to make everyone that has any amount of tattoo showing cover it, or do they grandfather everyone that has a tattoo before the policy is put in place, or do you only have to cover it if it is sexual or offensive in nature. Anyway the point is as of about a month ago when we talked to him they where still working out all the details and possible problems that could arise from this policy. Whew and I’m spent
It's kinda like the hair thing. It's okay for "them" to have long hair we but can't. Not that I want long hair but sh!t. I know of 2 women with eyeliner tatts.
We don't have a tattoo policy (yet) but if they ever make me wear pants year round to cover up mine, how would the chicks cover up thiers? Fake eyebrows?
I know it's not fair but that would be just silly.
Cover 'em up during the day and let 'em fly at night.
It is the same as going to see the chief and throwing on your boyscout shirt, gotta do it. If we hid them a little better then brass wouldn't be dreaming up a new policy for them.
Yeah the world is becoming more open about them but you still can't expect the little old lady to not be surprised to see you rolling in with ink on your arms.
I try and cover mine up during the day unless it is 100 degrees out. I can't help it, I get hot! Thank god for the nomex shorts.
I have over a 1000 hours of tattooing on me and I still want more.
Sleeve's? yep gonna probably have them soon.
T-bone is the 1st to break the barrier (well at least in the under 40 crowd!) but I bet that there at least another 5 on the job that are going to do it shortly. Stay tuned!
Heard a rumor today from my boy lvladder, that OC is going the way of LAFD and instituting a no visible tattoo policy!! I thought the Fire service was becoming more progressive, not moving backwards!!:confused:
Red Hot Truckie
07-05-08, 20:13
I have a half sleeve. Gotta be honest, if we HAVE to cover them up, it will give me a GOOD reason to finish it off and get full sleeves on both arms. LA County Fire has no tattoo policy. And talkin to the guys there, its not looking like they will have a tattoo policy. And alot of them have ink. Just one of MANY reasons to..............................
think smarter, not harder.
If a department is going to institute a tattoo policy, I think they will have to do it in a two tier format, i.e: if you have a previous tattoo then standard uniform shall apply...if you get a new tattoo, then plan on covering it up. For new-hires it would read: "If you have a tattoo, then it must not be visible to the general public". What's the job candidate going to say..."No thanks, man. I don't want your crummy job!"? Many places do the two tier idea with insurance and retirement benefits...this would be similar. I think that is the easiest way for a tattoo policy to be implemented if a department decides to enforce one.
[QUOTE=lvladder1;606]
As for covering them up, my opinion is this and it might be a bit of a double standard, if you had them before you got on and your department is cool with it, then fine.
The only real problem I see with this Caz, is that who doesnt show up in a suit covering their arms when they interview?
I have no problem with tats, for the exact same reason Ash, and LVLadder say and I also dislike them for those reasons stated before me as well.
I personally dont have any tats, only for the reason I have not found something I can 100% say I want forever. I feel those departments that have policies in place have the advantage as tats become more and more mainstream. But, it is a slippery slope when you start telling people who have been on your job for 10-15 years that they now must cover up their tats.
When you sack up and get a tat, then we'll talk...Until then, let the grown-ups talk about stuff that concerns them!!
RedBloodedAmerican
07-16-08, 21:25
It is interesting to hear both sides of this conversation, but at the same time, lets see some of these mysterious tattoos we may be covering up. It'd be interesting to see what different styles and tastes we all have. No pressure though.
ladderpiper
08-31-08, 09:45
Just sacked up and got myself a tatoo!
Am I less professional?
If I'm wearing a tank top while working out it will be visible, but wearing my normal Tshirt or uniform shirt, you can't tell.
With all of the tat issues upon us I was hesitant but it is still hidden.
I heard of departments having guys show up to interviews without longsleeve shirts and no suit jacket?
Has anyone experienced this or is it just one of those urban fire legends?
Hello everyone..I'm the new old guy. Think of ancient history and you get the idea. Why would anyone want a tatoo to begin with? I don't have any and don't plan on getting any. What am I missing here? Thanks. :) :) :) (personal logo)
Hello everyone..I'm the new old guy. Think of ancient history and you get the idea. Why would anyone want a tatoo to begin with? I don't have any and don't plan on getting any. What am I missing here? Thanks. :) :) :) (personal logo)
Then don't get a tat. But don't b!tch about my tattoos either. Why would anybody get a crew cut? Why would anybody pierce their ears? Why would anybody have long hair? Why would anybody eat ice cream? Why would anybody drive a Ford? Why would anybody.....I think you get the point. To each their own my friend. Freedom of expression. If you don't get....don't get it. But I dig it and wanna get tattoos. :cool:
Hello Ash702...There is lots of stuff I don't understand about this new generation of firefighter and perhaps the subject of tatoos is one of them. And...I freely admit that my lack of understanding may have an effect on my point of view....which may be rather conserative in nature.
I for one don't have any pierced ears or other body parts either. Frankly, I don't understand also why a young person who has chosen a particular public service career would do a lot of things they do....or complain about lots of aspects of the fire service they are choosing to join.
Perhaps it is just a generation thing. A particular point of view that, in the final reflection, may NOT effect the job performance of this new generation. Tatoos? Wow! Again, I find it strange that a person would choose to deface their own body.
Well, to each their own. If I were the Fire Chief, (which I am NOT) I personally would not care one way or another if a FF has tatoos or not. I mean it's totally unrelated to the performance of the job. But then again, maybe it's not.
It seems to me, for whatever it is worth, that body tatoos may indicate a particular attitude of the individual. And...would such a possible attitude directly affect the persons job performance? Dunno. Way above my pay grade, which is retarded/er retired.
Perhaps it is just an indication that young people today may have had it too good their entire young lives and do not have any comprehension of what it is like to have had little. Perhaps things have been given to them without having it being earned.
Just some thoughs and observations of young people today in general and young people with tatoos in the fire service in particular. Yeah, we all had short hair years ago....it kept it from being burned off in a worker. Long ago and far away. :) :) :)
HB,
Don't really understand how tats relate to having things handed to a younger generation? Maybe you could explain that a little further. And also, I am not a YOUNG generation. I am in my mid 30's, have paid my dues and am grateful EVERY day that I get to go to work as a Fireman. I worked my A$$ off to get this job and I DO NOT feel I am owed ANYTHING. I EARN and work hard for EVERYTHING I get. But thanks for your opinion.
By the way, you may call it DEFACING my body...but I call it DECORATING. Each of my tattoos represent something significant in my life. It may be my children, it may be my department.....it may be representative of my wife. But they are concealed for the most part, so I don't see how it affects my job.
Also, didn't you say you are a salty old Marine? Didn't tattoos originate from sailors? Dunno, you tell me.:cool:
Ash702, you deserve a good answer. Let me think about this one for awhile. Complicated. How do you condense 10,000 words into a short post.
You gotahave that to have that to have that to have that to have the option of getting a tatoo. Life wisdom I guess. Get back to you. :) :) :)
I did not read all of the prior posts. This topic has been covered in many online forums. Here is my opinion on tattoos.
Fire departments are getting more stringent on tattoo policies. My department, (Long Beach) do not allow ANY visible tattoos. The fire chief implemented a policy roughly two years ago that states those who had tattoos prior to the policy must keep them covered at all times. Approved cover up includes coban, band aid etc. Those with sleeves will wear long sleeve shirts. NO new employees will be hired with visible tattoos.
I sit on the Chief's interview panel.
Here is the question we ask:
Do you have any tattoos that would be visible while wearing a standard fire department uniform?
Do you have ANY tattoos that would be considered offensive (even if they are covered)?
Here is the advic I share with aspiring firefighters:
If you do not have any tattoos DO NOT GET ONE. If you have a visible tattoo, decide how important it is to you. Tattoo removal is an option.
chainsaw5vent
10-04-08, 20:59
the tattoo issue is one of the current hot topics in society. it is no longer 'avant garde' or bad boys who sport them, but has become popular among all segments of society.
i was driving around with my younger boys and we saw a young man sitting on the bench next to the movie theatre. the bench sitter was wearing fully detailed tattoo that covered his entire face. i emphatically told them never do that because that would ensure that they would never get hired in the f/d, p/d, military and many other jobs. quite possibly the only job they would qualify for would be the freak show.
several of our employees have gotten, or are getting tatted up. while most of the visible ink is interesting, what is the standard of what is or is not offensive to the general public or fellow employee? as bclepore stated, don't ink up at all, or cover them up.
the tattoo issue is one of the current hot topics in society. it is no longer 'avant garde' or bad boys who sport them, but has become popular among all segments of society.
i was driving around with my younger boys and we saw a young man sitting on the bench next to the movie theatre. the bench sitter was wearing fully detailed tattoo that covered his entire face. i emphatically told them never do that because that would ensure that they would never get hired in the f/d, p/d, military and many other jobs. quite possibly the only job they would qualify for would be the freak show.
several of our employees have gotten, or are getting tatted up. while most of the visible ink is interesting, what is the standard of what is or is not offensive to the general public or fellow employee? as bclepore stated, don't ink up at all, or cover them up.
Chainsaw,
I disagree with you as far as covering them up. If your department doesn't have a policy (which mine thankfully doesn't) let them be seen. After all, isn't that WHY we get tattoo's? For them to be seen.
I DO however, agree with you on FACIAL tattoos. Might be a tough sell in society...IN GENERAL!! But who knows...in another 20-30 years, might be more acceptable:p Don't think so...but maybe.
sansoofireman
10-16-08, 23:27
Whatever happens, it needs to be done with a "Big Picture" attitude by admins than a "Quick-fix" attitude. Before you fly a job announcement, add in that visible tattoos are against policy. Grandfather in everyone that has tattoos that need to be covered. Forbid them on faces, hands, etc. Within 20-30 years it won't be an issue anymore.
Yes I have a visible tattoo and would be affected by this policy. Fact of the matter is if they told me to grow a white-trash mullet or risk losing my job, I'd be looking like Joe Dirt. And I'd buy a hemi, that's right, I said HEMI.
It's OK to conform. I went to college to learn some mad skills that a fire department might one day ask me to provide for them. And now here I am. I feel like Jack with the magic beanstalks that just stole the golden goose by getting this job. I'm not going to screw it up by being stubborn.
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