View Full Version : Going Green, Phewy!
Dear Chile:
I read your web forums every day. I hope you can help me with some timely advice.
I'm fortunate to work for an outstanding fire department, in California, with some of the best firemen in the industry! Lately, my fire department has been going through "delusional" transformation, and I don't recognize it anymore. Can you help Chile?
Over the past several years, there has been a concerted effort (by those seeking to relive their youth & glory in the bush), to make our department more "green friendly." Though I don't have any problems with cross-familiarizing myself with wildland ff tactics & strategy, it's kind of a necessary evil in Cali, I do have growing concerns that this “green shift” is becoming excessive and is creating a detrimental diversion from our bread & butter “structural” responses, anybody out there experiencing the plight? Can’t recall our last high-rise, RIC, FF Survival training, but can readily recall some recent botany training (go figure). It seems that these green illusionalist have sold our administration on this shift and our using this go-green as a platform to a "gold badge."
Chile, should i embrace this change and purchase a pair of "whites" and paint my face green or should i encourage reform and diversity within our training division? My concern comes from a safety standpoint and is not to be taken as "antiwildland."
I'm just waiting for Hottie to chime in on this one, you know she's a USFS, CDF, BLM, OCFA, SBFD, and let's not forget EMS expert on every aspect of emeregncy services.
sansoofireman
06-14-08, 21:23
I'm just waiting for Hottie to chime in on this one, you know she's a USFS, CDF, BLM, OCFA, SBFD, and let's not forget EMS expert on every aspect of emeregncy services.
Yet again, another spot-on quote.
But in keeping with the original post, word. I joined this department to fight structure fires with an occasional brush fire here and there. There are some guys I know who have taken all of these wildland classes and go out on all these strike teams for weeks and weeks at a time. It benefits the department not one bit, but is still held in high regard. Then we got threatened with a pack-test. Then it got shot down. Then we trained on progressive hose-lays. Then we trained on blah-blah-blah...
I'd rather crawl in a front door than up a hill.
Well, well.
Mr. TomCat,
I find your approach to your new membership here at westcoast911 very interesting.
First, throw a jab at me for over-censorship, then, follow-up with a post as if I'm a "Dear Abby" full of wisdom and advice therapist. I Like it!
Interestingly enough, I have seen the same transition within the fire service in California. Believe me, this "plight" that you are referring to is not isolated to just your organization; it's everyone and everywhere.
Here is my humble observation:
As a consequence to years of quick extinguishment and severe over-growth of vegetation, the Golden State is now turning into blackened hills full of char and ash. Let's make the problem even worse by placing as many cookie cutter homes in the foothills as possible.
The fact of the matter is Mr. Cat that WE as municipal firefighters in California, are forced to play a major role in aiding the FEDS and Cal Fire. They CANNOT do it without us.
Mr. Cat, we are forced to wear many hats.
It's tuff to remember everything we as firefighters "specialize" in as an "all risk" entity serving the public. One of our other members brought that point up a while back in another thread that you may read here (Are Firefighters Too Diluted? (http://westcoast911.com/vb/showthread.php?t=35)).
To aid you in alleviating some of your concern I suggest the following: Concentrate on the extensive bread and butter operations training sessions during the winter months. (not to defer from your regular engine and truck company monthly training hours)
But let me answer your other two concerns more directly...
Yes, we are making that shift to "go green" and are facing that "plight".
And Yes, you should absolutely embrace this change and purchase a pair of "Whites" but definitely don't paint your face green.
Oh, by the way, pick up a radio harness while you're at it.:D
Best Regards,
Chile
There is nothing green about the fire service.
Except a rookie.
That is all.
exactly!! Chile - you catchin this?
Lvladder, the Chile's and their "birkenstock" wearing Captains' are trying to redefine the FS to fit their mold. You'd think they'd adjust their rhetoric to coincide with the fact that we burned off much of the 30+ y/o fuels in Southern California.
There is nothing green about the fire service.
Except a rookie.
That is all.
You forgot your Verde enchiladas...Oh wait this isn't the recipe thread:D
I stand corrected....your Chile Verde!!! (Happy now, Bizatch!?!)
Lvladder, the Chile's and their "birkenstock" wearing Captains' are trying to redefine the FS to fit their mold. You'd think they'd adjust their rhetoric to coincide with the fact that we burned off much of the 30+ y/o fuels in Southern California.
I'll start off by saying that I would much rather fight a structure fire than chase a grass fire; but, with all of the wildland interface costruction, we've got to keep that grass from getting into the structures. Everyone trains for structure fires in the academy with little time spent on wildland. Yes, we have burned off a lot of the older vegetation...but remember, it's the "light, flashy fuels" that kill firemen...and more firemen are killed in wildland fires than in structure fires.
Hey Tomcat deal with it that is the way the world is turning these days. It is just the hot topic right now in a few years it will be something else. Just the way the fire service when something hot comes up they focus on it, but when that hot topic changes so does the focus. Oh yeah and like Jude sais way more firefighters die in light flasht fuels, so why wouldbt we want to train on it?
I believe this "plight' of going green or becoming a brush bunny is there has been an excessive amount of burn-overs, shelter deployments and FF injuries & deaths over recent years here in Calif.
I too would much rather have a good working structure, but the sad fact is we are killing, injuring or getting FF's caught in bad situations, and that has alot of chiefs, training/safety officers asking themselves what can be done to eliminate this trend. That is the wildland training.
I totally believe in wildland training for everyone, but we can't afford to forget about our "bread & Butter" operations either. There has to be a balance of all types of training, otherwise we run the risk of loosing other valuable skills.
firemedic301
06-20-08, 11:49
OK let me bring this point up. BOTTOM line is ALMOST ALL the burn-overs, shelter deployments, and close calls happen because a CAPTAIN or HIGHER OVERHEAD has put the crew in a situation that was a "no win" BAD SITUATION. I was involved is a NEAR miss BURN-OVER last year on the BUTLER 2 fire because of 2 factors, A St*BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP*laus HOT-SHOT Captain that had NO clue of Firing Ops (under the circumstances) and INEXPERIENCED Captains that didn't recognize a BAD situation WAY before the $HIT hit the fan!!!! If it wasn't for a well placed AIR drop 15-20 guy's would have been burned over!!!! I don't say this to BASH Captains or OVERHEAD just to say even through we are CITY guy's IF you are going to spend time on a Brush Engine, going to go out on Strike Teams, or have a big URBAN INTERFACE then LEARN WILDLAND and most of ALL look at a SITUATION you are involved in with COMMON SENSE and SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. I'm also not saying DON'T be aggressive just be smart and remember don't hang it out and put your nuts on the line for some bushes!!!!
FINAL thought is remember EVERYBODY involved in a WILDLAND FIRE OPERATION has the right to say NO and when the $HIT IS HITTING THE FAN - CALL FOR ASSISTANCE EARLY. Also, KNOW who your in the $HIT with and their experience level. REVIEW your FireOrders and LCES constantly ultimately it is YOUR A$$ like it or not!!!! I have seen a few Captains on WILDLAND FIRES tell a Strike Team Leader or Overhead "NO" on a certain OP's and I have a HUGE respect for a Captain that LISTENS to his CREW and respects EVERYBODIES opinions.
Firemedic301; I agree with you- Alot of Captains and supervisors have put their crews in situations that could have cost them their lives.
But I have also seen FF's do the same thing: trying to be a Super FF and winds up getting themselves or their crews hurt!
But ultimatley it is the Captains responsibility to keep their crews safe and be their look out!
Firemedic301 said it great: Never be es-cared to say to NO to an assignment that may be unsafe..
Again, this is the reason a good majority of Departments in Calif. are doing more and more wildland training. We have alot of the newer captains and supervisors that dont have the experience and background to engage in wildland interface incidents and therefore the dept. are giving them some training.
In my dept we have alot of Captains that worked on the Medic unit their whole career and now are in charge of a crew....
Johnny on the spot
06-20-08, 18:00
I never have understood wildland firefighting. I always say that "I respect the wildland firefighters...blah blah blah" because I do respect their hard work and knowledge. But in all honesty, I do not respect wildland firefighting one bit.
We are a democratic nation, not a socialist society, so you can work or live anywhere you want. IF you CHOSE to build/buy/live in the mountains, do not expect us to protect your house in case of fire. It is retarded. Wildland FF's have gotten so good at stopping the fires and saving houses, that everyone who lives in these high-risk areas EXPECT us to run in there, risk our lives to save a pile of wood they call their "home". The consequences of extinguishment is over growth. The natural process of thinning by fire is halted, and now we have huge fires to put out. for what? to save a house or two... or 50 or a 1000? why?
I have an idea... don't live in the mountains. But if you have to, then don't call us if there is a fire. Our state will save hundreds of millions of dollars every year on wildland suppression. And finally, don't live in the mountains.
true story.
PS: my whites are very comfortable.
Johnny on the spot:We are a democratic nation, not a socialist society, so you can work or live anywhere you want. IF you CHOSE to build/buy/live in the mountains, do not expect us to protect your house in case of fire. It is retarded. Wildland FF's have gotten so good at stopping the fires and saving houses, that everyone who lives in these high-risk areas EXPECT us to run in there, risk our lives to save a pile of wood they call their "home".
Well if dont protect the homes, there is always the private fire depts that will
provide fire protection!
The insurance agencies already have multiple fire patrols protecting the multi-million dollar homes in Southern Ca.
firemedic301
06-21-08, 10:20
Hell if you want to go that far why should WE risk our life putting out structure fires if they are started by a candle, gas stove, electricity short, chiminey fire. Hell people shouldn't ask US to risk our lives to put out ANY fires because generally they are started for some useless reasons. WE also shouldn't respond to Med Aids that are caused by Stupid People!!!! Think of the money the government would save if we ONLY responded to TRUE EMERGENCIES!!!!!!! I hope you pick up my sarcasm because I was laying on think.......
I do think homes built in "HIGH RISK" interface zones should pay a special higher fire protection Tax for certain areas and those areas weed abatement policies should be enforced harder.
Here is my PASSION, I get paid a RIDICULOUS amount of money to do this job and ALL that it entales, including WILDLAND. The more crap they can throw at us the better because it makes US harder to replace.
I think you should bring up to the management that you would like to have a Engine Company that ONLY responds to Stucture Fires and you will do it on commission at $40 per hour while you are working a structure fire and I hope that $200 check a week can pay your bills!!!???!!! Think of all the P90X you could get in with all that down time.
WILDLAND is here to STAY like it or not so $hit or get off the pot, get some YEARS under your belt and it will validate your whinning a bit more;)
Don't get me wrong I don't live and breathe WILDLAND but as a PROFESSIONAL Fireman I do WHATEVER we are called to do. One thing I would like to see, is SPECIALTY WILDLAND personnel with SPECIALTY PAY incentive in the NORTH END stations:D for people that take the appropriate classes and pass the pack test and are on a Brush Engine????
Think Trkman captured the essence of my original piece, "Going Green." The key is "balance" in our training methods! I concur with all of you, we need to train for those "green" threats, but this training should come at the expense of other equally important structural awareness & training opportunities.
As I write this, FF "Low Air" incidences (Big Box or otherwise) is epidemic, structural FF's are dying in higher proportions, than before, from Flashovers and structural colapse, etc, etc. Think we have plenty of reasons no too totally ignore our bread-n-butter
Listen fellas, all I'm trying to say is that we can't "fly the coup" with our other equally important structural responsibilities because some forest service wannabees, within your department, has finally found his e-ticket to the "gold" and is trying to move you into that litl green truck. Trkman, I haven't seen any green trucks yet, perhaps we can sell the idea as a means of preserving the spotted owls nesting grounds.
Johnny on the spot
06-21-08, 14:44
As a "sarcastic scholar" I do appreciate your sarcasm 301. However, your argument is weak sauce. A structure fire in a City is so much different than a forrest fire that consumes homes. Saying that we should not respond and risk "it" for a structure fire in our city is retarded, and not the same thing as risking "it" for a house in the mountains.
I do take wildland training serious because even with my lack of "years" on the mountain, I am smart enough to understand how dangerous it is and how much I do not know. With that said, I still think we should let forrest fires burn the forrest... like we did long, long ago... in the before time.
I have friends, family, and coworkers who live in the mountains... beautiful homes, great weather, clean air.... I understand why they live there. That does not change the fact that it is not a smart place to build a home.
New Orleans is another example. If I were to sell you a house that is 10-15 feet below sea level, with an old dirt levee a few miles away, holding back gabillions of gallons of sea water, in an area known for hurricanes.... would you like to buy it and put your family there?
If your answer is "No" then welcome to the Human Race; Santa Clause and the tooth fairy are not real, both the Big Bang theory and the theory of evolution are in fact "theoretical", and H2O does not conduct electricity.
If your answer is "yes" then I have some property in the San Berardino Mountains that you may be interested in. Great place to build a home and put your family in. Oh, and the weather is really great right now... Nice and hot.. but don't worry, unlike New Orleans, its a real dry heat, like 12% RH.
Johnny, think your on to something! From my humbly opinion, the insurance industry will soon react through a perpetual underwriting process. If WUI/WI households do not comply with 100+ perimeters, class A roofs, canopy removal, attic screens & sprinklers - their insurance policies will be yanked! This will cause a trickle down effect to their mortgage carriers.
As for Nawlins, they're a loss cause. Good food, but think we would all be better served with it as a coral reef!
As for Nawlins, they're a loss cause. Good food, but think we would all be better served with it as a coral reef!
That is a very unAmerican statement TomCat!
That is one of OUR cities in this awesome country.
How about if it was your family that lived there? I have family there.
If your answer is "yes" then I have some property in the San Berardino Mountains that you may be interested in. Great place to build a home and put your family in. Oh, and the weather is really great right now... Nice and hot.. but don't worry, unlike New Orleans, its a real dry heat, like 12% RH.
You too Johnny G spot. Chill out on my family's origins. There has been alot of good things that have come out of that part of the country.
I'm sure that most people who bought and decided to live there were never told some of the sea level issues.
How about placing some blame on the old city founders and settlers?
Johnny on the spot
06-21-08, 23:27
Hmmm. Very interesting. Where do we place blame for New Orleans?
This reminds me of some of my High School classmates back in the day.
I used to live in Chino with dairy land all around us. When I was In High School, builders bought out the dairy lands and put tract homes everywhere. I remember hearing students complaining about all the flies and that "horrible" dairy smell. Their parents would go in front of the city council requesting that "something be done about it". I laughed. Flies and cow smell... in Chino of all places.... who'd a thought? :eek: NOBODY made them buy their house there. They made a CHOICE, and now look to blame somebody for their POOR choice. Their poor choice.
Where to put the blame? If we all answer that honestly, we will all agree.
PS: if you live in an area with a fly problem, fill up a small/medium size ziplock bag 1/2 full (or 1/2 empty for you pessimists...aka: "realists" lol) and hang it from the top of your door or window jambs so that it hangs a few (5-6) inches below the top. this should keep most flies out.. even with the windows/doors open.
Johnny on the spot
06-21-08, 23:37
You too Johnny G spot. Chill out on my family's origins. There has been alot of good things that have come out of that part of the country.
I'm sure that most people who bought and decided to live there were never told some of the sea level issues.
How about placing some blame on the old city founders and settlers?
illDaddy; you refer to my statement about San Bernardino mountains being real low relative humidity (12%) unlike New Orleans that can experience 100% RH... this part of my statement was not a bash on your "family's origins." This was to point out how dry the mountains are...with all this heat we are getting... big fire is imminent.
The statements earlier in my post were not meant to bash your family's origins either, it was only to highlight another example of poor choices in places to live... then acting surprized when the "unthinkable" happens.:D
exactly!! Chile - you catchin this?
Lvladder, the Chile's and their "birkenstock" wearing Captains' are trying to redefine the FS to fit their mold. You'd think they'd adjust their rhetoric to coincide with the fact that we burned off much of the 30+ y/o fuels in Southern California.
You say that we have burned off much of the fuels. Look at the big picture. It is only a small percentage. Just take a drive to our local so. cal mountains. Several large fires over the last several years with tons of fuel left. Millions of acres still left to burn. Train on your wildland, your life depends on it.
chainsaw5vent
07-06-08, 21:56
I do think homes built in "HIGH RISK" interface zones should pay a special higher fire protection Tax for certain areas and those areas weed abatement policies should be enforced harder.
Here is my PASSION, I get paid a RIDICULOUS amount of money to do this job and ALL that it entales, including WILDLAND. The more crap they can throw at us the better because it makes US harder to replace.
I think you should bring up to the management that you would like to have a Engine Company that ONLY responds to Stucture Fires and you will do it on commission at $40 per hour while you are working a structure fire and I hope that $200 check a week can pay your bills!!!???!!! Think of all the P90X you could get in with all that down time.
WILDLAND is here to STAY like it or not so $hit or get off the pot, get some YEARS under your belt and it will validate your whinning a bit more;)
Don't get me wrong I don't live and breathe WILDLAND but as a PROFESSIONAL Fireman I do WHATEVER we are called to do. One thing I would like to see, is SPECIALTY WILDLAND personnel with SPECIALTY PAY incentive in the NORTH END stations:D for people that take the appropriate classes and pass the pack test and are on a Brush Engine????
fm301, i think you've hit the nail on the head, specially that part about whining from a lesser experienced member.
saving lives and property on REAL calls is what we care about. not the chronic caller who we remember all the meds, and ssn's that they and their kids have....
but the specialty stations on the north end for are the retirement stations..arduous duty for 3 months a year hahaha, while the rest of us are hanging out in the central core areas getting poooop handed to us. oh well. i guess i'll go test for some mayberry rfd fire dept and keep a fishin' pole and rifle on the engine.....not!
ladderpiper
08-14-08, 00:22
The fact of the matter is Mr. Cat that WE as municipal firefighters in California, are forced to play a major role in aiding the FEDS and Cal Fire. They CANNOT do it without us.
so many of us continue to work many, many days on. Our time off is canceled and it's been a really tuff year already for so many of us.
I'd love to disagree with you Chile out of pride for my department, but I think you are pretty right on with this response to th TomCat character.
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