View Full Version : hazing rookies
Recently I was talking to a friend on the phone about my new rookie. During our conversation my friend said that some of the stuff we have our rookies do is "bull sh1t" and that "hazing rookies doesn't teach them anything about the fire service". He said that the whole last to eat, first one in the suds and making coffee was a bunch of BS..... REALLY? REALLY? Well I beg to differ. That stuff is not hazing and we don't force them to do that stuff. But a good rookie will. Besides, it's a right of passage, we all or most of us went through a bit of hazing when we got on. I feel that helps you bond with your crew and thickens the skin of those thin skinned fellas. It gets them ready for the next 25 or 30 years.
I don't know, but they're a couple of my old rookies on this site, what do you think?
firemedic301
07-16-08, 23:02
What you posted Bill is way far from HAZING, it is what you said, paying your dues. Now making a Rookie wax the Engine at 2-4am just because or making them stand and eat dinner until they prove they are worthy of sitting down with the guy's, that is BS hazing and only makes that Rookie hate you for the rest of his career.
I would like to hear some other stories of hazing that guy's have heard about, just for some good old fashion fun and HELL remember that eating dog food can make you a multi-millionaire if you play your cards right.;)
TaylorMade
09-15-08, 17:18
I think that we should tread carefully on the issue of hazing. Things are not the same as when I first started in the fire service. A kinder more gentler approach seems to be taking the service by storm and being misinterpreted by the younger generation as us older guys being "soft".
The fact of the matter is that much of the hazing that occurred back when I was a rookie is unacceptable now due to litigation issues.
There are however many things that we can do to pass on the tradition and expectations of our younger members.
How about delivering EXACTLY what you expect of them in their tower? Don't keep them guessing.
I think that any newbies in this arena should pay special attention to all of the pointers from the previous thread in this forum about being a "Good Rookie".
It is possible to achieve a similar goal of teaching the younger guys good fire service values and conduct by speaking clearly to them rather than hazing.
Nowdays all us older guys can do is break their bad habits or egotistical tendencies with a little "verbal judo". :D
sansoofireman
09-16-08, 13:22
The fact of the matter is that much of the hazing that occurred back when I was a rookie is unacceptable now due to litigation issues.
And why is that?
Here's my guess. There are a lot of people nowadays, and maybe it's generational, that are self-centered, lack a morally-straight conscience, and get their little feelings hurt every time something doesn't go their way. So they sue. That is their out. It's their way of saying, "I lack the huevos to stand up for myself, so I'll have the legal system do it for me." And much to our changrine, they do it on our dollar. For personal issues. Because they got their feelings hurt.
Three weeks after I turned 16, I got my first job. I asked my uncle for advice, and all he told me was, "Earn an honest penny." Now, I'm not the perfect employee, but I cash my check knowing that I earned it. And if they want to move me from my normal station for the betterment of the department, so be it. If they make me switch crews for the betterment of the department, so be it. If they make me cross-shift, SO BE IT! I'm not going to file a grievance or sue based solely on my selfishness.
I went to the fire academy and paramedic school so that I could learn to provide a service. My department hired me so that I have an avenue to provide said service. They don't owe me anything but a paycheck and anything guaranteed under my MOU. If I expect more, then I need to leave. No one is forcing me to stay here.
So what's my point you ask?
Earn an honest penny and don't sue because you got your feelings hurt. Litigation is one of the biggest cancers affecting fire departments nowadays. The staff/chiefs spend more time dealing with personnel issues than they do running the department. Imagine how much more efficient the department could be run if they weren't dealing with inane, immature issues, brought on by inane, immature employees.
If I hurt your feelings, address me with your concerns. Don't be a coward and sue me.
Oh yeah, hazing. I used to get thrown around by my abusive Dad and was in the Army back when Drill Sergeants used to smack us around. This place is like Club-Med.
chainsaw5vent
09-16-08, 14:05
sansoo, i agree with what you say. there are many who don't understand how 'nice' the fire service is today compared to many of the other career fields that they could have chosen. management SHOULD follow their own policies and the MOU'S before they hang themselves out to dry, and employees should do what is truly right instead of trying to slide one by the managers.
and a lot of the new employees don't know what the struggles of trying to get out of some serious knuckle/knee/back breaking work was. many of the older guys did do military time, construction, farm work, etc. before they realized that the fire service would be a very good career option for them. some of the newer employees have never really sweated during their previous careers.
as for the cross shifting issues, i have been crossed shifted 'for the good of the department' about a dozen times in the last 9 years. one occured at 10:30 p.m. while i was at work and being told that my new shift started tomorrow morning. (you said whaaaat!!!!?) on my last promotional eval, a captain asked me to send him a list of captains that i had been assigned to for the last four years and the list i sent him totalled 8, plus the senior eng'r (no capt. assigned to station due to injury vacancy) and not counting the one that i forgot to mention.
was this my fault? yeah. i liked to pick busy stations for fire and righteous calls and staff decided that they wanted to put rookies there in the spot.
oh well, i guess i'll go bid into some slow out of the way station......
sansoofireman
09-16-08, 14:54
Dude,
Once you get your P-3, you'll be set.
You took the transfers like a man and didn't complain. That's probably why they transferred you, not because it was the best choice at the time, but because you were the path of least resistance. Now would they transfer someone out who had a history of litigation and they feared a lawsuit?
I think we know the answer to that one.
Come on Really??!!
Tell the freakin FNG if they dont it like there is the door. There are plenty of other candidates waiting to take their spot!
We have become way to gentle on the rookies. From training, to day to day operations, rookies have it much easier then most of us did.
I am not saying lets go back to tying people down to backboards and such(although that was fun), what I am saying, is they need to earn the respect of the other firefighters, show that they really want this job and are willing to work hard to keep it.
Lets quit coddling these lazy, self serving, wanna be's! Put up or shut up!
The saying: get in, sit down and shut up says it all!
Sorry, just tired of hearing about new Firefighters whining about doing their job! Hearing things like: "They are hazing me", dont you know I went to STANFORD and have a degree in medicine. I shouldn't have to clean toilets!
They need to realize they are very lucky to have this career, specially when some of our brothers are facing lay-offs and stations closures through out the country.
Take care all
Shorttimer
09-16-08, 17:56
There has got to be some middle ground in this debate. I had a rookie that grew up on a farm, hard work was no big deal. I had one that was in the Marine Corp and had a mission like what was on Generation Kill in the first units to go into Iraq. Another that was aircrew inserting and extracting SO guys in Desert storm. Had I assumed that they were know-nothing-college-boy-live-at home-slackers I could have made their probation harder on myself than needed to. Our rookies are way better trained than I was coming out of the tower, probably better conditioned than I was. They have to put on drills everyday. They complete 2, 3" thick study guides for their probationary assigments. Mine were as thick as a playboy magazine. We did some gentle harrasing like setting watches earlier and earlier to see if the will always try to be up to make coffee. They do. All the boots I've had are pretty much self impose the whipping boy thing. You can be firm with a boot, you should be firm with them. Do they need to be treated like second class citizens? No. There is always some informal peer training but stuff like standing while eating or sleeping by the rig don't teach anything but resentment. Take the time to get to know who they really are and make your expectations known early and often and everything will work out.
chainsaw5vent
09-16-08, 18:07
o great sansoo, i did complain on a couple of ocassions and received the christmas time off. and dug my heels into the asphalt and concrete and avoided one other cross shift. (only to be backdoored by the 'rookie placement' a couple of weeks later and sent back out to st.6!!)
ladderpiper
09-17-08, 10:39
Hey ShortTimer...
I respect the rank and experience, but let me ask you this - Just because the new guys that come on are more educated, trained and physically fit than in the past, does that mean they don't have to be rookies?
There are benefits to "hard lessons" that some arrogant younger guys need.
My personal opinion: It is getting harder and harder to find good rookies these day. I think that Taylor Made gives some good advice when he tells new guys to check out the posts on ADVICE TO NEW FIREFIGHTERS (http://westcoast911.com/vb/showthread.php?t=85)
I'm the new old guy. New to this forum, but old physically and long retired from the job. Regarding hazzing, about a million years ago when I was the "*BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP* eyes rookie" (sorry) hazzing was expected and ENJOYED!
Hugh? Well, since you were going to risking your life (rarely) with everyone, the old guys had every right and NEED to test your character. Yeah! Pretty simply actually. They would subject you to all sorts of things.
Including eating dog food. (Canned high priced stuff too) Including scrubbing the toilets with a tooth brush. Including trying to get you very mad sooss you may try to strike back. All of this stuff happened to me.
Well, for all you new guys; (sorry again...people) just try for a minute to figure out WHY they are doing to you all of these "bad and horrible and racist things"!! They are doing you a favor. They actually are testing your...
...ability to stand up to the hazzing...which is nothing like what you may/will have to put up with on the job. Sosss, in a way, they are going you a favor because you may have what it takes. Sound logical? Thanks. :) :) :)
I dunt know why as rookies we have to go through hazing? I think we have enough on our plates. This is the new age. Get rid of the dinasour philosphies.
Berdoo Beau
09-18-08, 12:15
OG10 - I believe that within the space of your 4 eloquent sentences, you have expressed the exact reasons why rookies SHOULD be "tested". Well done, Young Sir.
Cheers!
Bill
GirlMedic03
09-18-08, 23:38
Well, for all you new guys; (sorry again...people) just try for a minute to figure out WHY they are doing to you all of these "bad and horrible and racist things"!! They are doing you a favor. They actually are testing your...
...ability to stand up to the hazzing...which is nothing like what you may/will have to put up with on the job. Sosss, in a way, they are going you a favor because you may have what it takes. Sound logical? Thanks. :) :) :)
Dear HB of CJ (or anyone else that wants to chime in),
I can certainly appreciate your straightforwardness regarding testing the character of new firefighters. However, don't you think that things in the past may have been overboard? Which is why hazing in excess is not tolerated today by not only the newbies, but at the admin level?
I would hope that when I get hired, that I never have to eat dog food or get treated really harshly. I know I can expect it to be tough at times or should I say challenging, but wrong is wrong.
Your right Girl Medic. I hope you don't have to go through some of the stuff that I have to. Cleaning the heads with a tooth brush is for the birds. I've gone through a lot of schooling so I could be a firefighter so I really think I've paid my dues. Part-time for now but I'm sure I'll get picked up soon. I just hope when I do I don't get hazed from the dinosaurs.
OG10: Did I HEAR you correctly. You have gone through all this education therefore you have paid your dues???!!! Your Killen me! I went through a ton of education, yet I still worked my *BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP* off to get where I am at. I never felt that cleaning the heads was below me. And yes, I Have a couple of degrees, so throw out the I HAVE a DEGREE card.
If that is how you feel I certainely hope you are not my rookie, let alone hired by my dept.
First: You have not even come close to paying your dues in the fire service until you have at least passed probation and started to give back to the service!
Second: All Firefighters, young & old, have all gone through alot of schooling to get where we are at. YOU are not owed anything, including a job, from the fire service simply because you went to school.
Third: If you feel scrubbing toilets is beneath you, its time for a serious look in the mirror. If you cant even do something so simple, how are you going to deal with your Captain telling you to pick up a man who just *BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP* himself and needs help?? Or walk into a home that has cat & dog crap upto your ankle? Going to tell your captain NO!?
How about getting dirty on a fire? Scared of that too? Are you going to be that guy at 366 and has neat new turnouts when everyone else is dirty?
I dont condon overboard hazing such as eating dogfood. However, I do believe rookies are to be the first one "in" and the "last" one out for most everything that comes up.
Having water thrown at you, answering the phone, doing the B.S. jobs is all part of earning the respect of the crew!
Remember You are the FNG and you do have something to prove to us! That you are a team player and are willing to do what it takes to do a good job! We (the fire service) are sick and tired of rookies complaining about their "workload".
Any questions? let me know...
trkmant46
Fire Captain-awaiting your arrival!
sansoofireman
09-19-08, 15:16
OG10
You are what's wrong with younger folks nowadays. You haven't paid into anything, earned anything, or acquired the right to relax. I have 6 years full-time and if I'm the low-ranking guy on shift, regardless of age or any other factor, I'm a toilet-scrubbing mo-fo. I vacuum, empty the trash, keep the coffee going. In the mornings I put up the flags, set out the paper, make the coffee, empty the dishwasher, and set up creamer and sugar and a little spoon on a paper towel.
Do I do these things because I lack integrity or a backbone? Should I not do these things because I feel I've earned the right not to do them? Emphatically... NO.
I do these things because I respect rank and seniority. Powerful statement? I think so, too. So, I'm going to repeat it. I DO THESE THINGS BECAUSE I RESPECT RANK AND SENIORITY. I call people sir and ma'am and have a big freakin' smile on my face so people know I appreciate all thats been given to me, not because I think I've earned it. I'm PRIVELEDGED and HONORED to have this job.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Dear HB of CJ (or anyone else that wants to chime in),
I can certainly appreciate your straightforwardness regarding testing the character of new firefighters. However, don't you think that things in the past may have been overboard? Which is why hazing in excess is not tolerated today by not only the newbies, but at the admin level?
I would hope that when I get hired, that I never have to eat dog food or get treated really harshly. I know I can expect it to be tough at times or should I say challenging, but wrong is wrong.
Girl Medic,
You seem to have SOME knowledge of the fire service, so it surprises me to see you on this side of the fence. Hazing is an intricate part of becoming part of the team. It tests how you will react to uncomfortable situations. That is what alot of the fire service is about. Inside the fire house and out in the field, there are alot of things that are weird. If you have no sense of humor about yourself and being the butt of a joke in the station....I don't wanna hang out with you!! It is all cyclical... What goes around comes around and we ALL went through it. So sack up and deal with it. If you don't have the junk to do so (which biologically, you obviously don't:) ) then you gotta put on a happy face and roll with it.
Also, that eating dog food was a single incident in LA City and it wasn't even a rookie. But I am SURE that you knew that.
OG,
Pull your head out of your a$$!! If you are too good to scrub a sh!tter, then you are a better man than me. I have only been on for 6 years, and I still do my part and pitch in around the station. My partner, who has been on for 8 years, also scrubs toilets!! You have no idea or concept of tradition and if you feel as though you deserve respect, you got alot to learn. You EARN respect. You don't GET it. And I think that is your problem. You just don't get it. Good Luck, vollie...
OK OG, I bit. This was all a joke, trying to see who would bite, right? OG? Where are you??
Must be in the Captains office telling him/her to pound sand- "I dont do the heads CAPTAIN": Sheesh, when will these dinosuars learn...gosh.
Come out and play... I have a midol for ya!
I would like to apologize for my post being misinterpreted. I didn't say I wouldn't clean the heads, I was just saying that doing it with a toothbrush was for the birds. It all came across wrong. You can't see emotion while texting or writing if you know what I mean. Anyways, I apologize for blowing up the forum and I'll pay my dues and keep my mouth shut from now on. Thanks for the good advice.
GirlMedic03
09-19-08, 18:24
Okay listen guys.
I never said that I did not expect to be given a hard time as a rookie. All I meant was that I am glad that things are not "overboard" like they used to be in the past. My Dad says that things that he did to some guys or had done to him as a rookie would never fly today.
Like my Dad always said, "We all know what right and wrong is, it's just a matter of deciding what to do."
When I get on, I will respect rank and seniority and properly "play the game". But I still say that I am glad that rookies aren't tormented the way my Dad told me they were.:p
For all of you new/young people expressing the lack of need of hazzing, thank you for your views. We do need input from all points of view. Really, I do mean this. Thank you. No question that the fire service is definitely changing.
With all respect, I also believe that your opinions/views MAY be in error. May be. Here is why. Let me try to explain. Hang on, this may be a long post. Alsosss I apologize for my speeeling...I am typing (not key boarding) this in the dark.
I'm nearly 60. Yeah, a dinosaur. In fact my nickname became Allie. (as in Allie-Opp, the comic strip cave man) Went on the job in 1972. All our apparatus had manual, crash box transmissions. Fuller T905's in fact. Yeah, no Allisions at all.
You learned how to double clutch. No exceptions. All the rigs had some sort of 2-stroke Detroits, pumped to the max. N90 injectors until California CARB made the shops tune them down. No mufflers to speak of. They sounded soosss cool.
We rode the tailboards of the Seagraves and American LaFrances. No restraint straps. The stories I could tell....(expecially the nite I really had to pee bad, ssoooooss returning from a call, I "hummed"...for over a half mile!!) He he he. True!!
Bakersfield City Fire Department way back then was still an I.S.O. Class One outfit. Eight Engines, Three Trucks, Two Battalions. 46 minimum staffing. Tiny department then. Bigger now and, I think, Class 3 soon to be Class 4. $Budget$ realities.
I digress. AS degree fire science. Paramedic schooling but no clinical. Later BSN registered nursing. Nursing sucks. Another story. Former combat Marine like thousands of others. All of this is ancient history, but needful background of me.
The stuff I did see. Way back then, the fire service, or at least the part of it I experienced was more military oriented than civil oriented. Yeah, I ate dog food. So what, it was just dog food. Alpo I think. Traditional at Engine 4 for rooks.
Yeah, cleaned toilet bowls with a toothbrush. Not mine. Supplied. Had to get the hard water spots off. Station inspection coming up. Also cleaned the grout on the two shower stalls the same way. The old guys were right besides me.
The EN loved to cook and did. Ex Korean war era US. Navy admirals/captains chef. Superb chow. I would clean up the kitchen in exchange for learning cool new meals. When the house was clean enough the Captain would say, "that's good enough".
E4 ran slow, about 800 runs per year. In one important respect, the call volume you guys experience today is really mind boggling. In the BFD today, the AVERAGE E goes about 1800 times yearly. Can't imagine what it may be nationally.
Fist fights, while not common, did happen. I had one at E4. I let him win. Yeah, blows were exchanged. So what! It was just a fist-d-cuffs. He later became a very good friend and helped me pass the EN test. Do this appall all you new people?
Hugh? It does? Well, perhaps it is time for a wake up call. All of this hazzing stuff is NOTHING compared to what you WILL EXPERIENCE in the course of your career. You will pull dead babies out of trash bins....with the cord still attached.
You will respond to car-vs-stalled freight train wrecks with multiple headless dead. "Hey Chief....I found a head" Yeah, I said that. Got yelled at royally because the public was watching. Heads are heavy, let me tell you. Yech, for sures.
Burned up human bodies sosss wasted that you put the pieces into the green bag a small piece at a time. Yeah, you can still tell male from female. Believe me, you can. You WILL experience all of this and much, much more in the years to come.
So why all the horror stories? Because, if you can't stand the heat, perhaps it is better that you do not enter the kitchen. The fire service SHOULD be still more military oriented than civil oriented. It has to be. The stuff you are going to see.
Hazzing, by comparison, is a gentle initation to the realities of the job. No one beats you up physically. I had only one fist fight. No big deal. The old timers have every right and duty to test your mettle to see how you respond.
The reason why the "no hazzing policy" has become popular is because, in my humble opinion (which may be totally wrong) upper officers are being selected for the wrong reasons. Once in power/command, they do not lead...they manage.
The elected politicans who detemine who becomes a chief(s) have been elected by a dog and pony show rather than sound leadership abilities. They are the source of the problem, that plus too many people being able to vote their own self interest.
But...that is another political subject. Back on track, regarding the fire service, hazzing is now a "no no" because todays chief's are basically paper pushers doing city hall's bidding rather than making the hard decisions that directly affect the public safety.
When is the last time you have seen the fire chief leading the daily 6am 5 mile run? Hugh you say? When was the last time you saw the fire chief at a working fire....at 4am? When did YOUR fire chief last relieve a FF sooss he could attend a Christmas dinner?
It happened years ago. Yeah, long ago and far away. Again, ancient history. Hazzing still is required. Its serves important functions. It tests the character of the rookie. No one is immune. No one should be. That's the way it was. Thanks. :) :) :) (personal handle)
Shorttimer
09-30-08, 00:30
Hey ShortTimer...
I respect the rank and experience, but let me ask you this - Just because the new guys that come on are more educated, trained and physically fit than in the past, does that mean they don't have to be rookies?
There are benefits to "hard lessons" that some arrogant younger guys need.
My personal opinion: It is getting harder and harder to find good rookies these day. I think that Taylor Made gives some good advice when he tells new guys to check out the posts on ADVICE TO NEW FIREFIGHTERS (http://westcoast911.com/vb/showthread.php?t=85)
No, not at all, like I said, Be firm. We get guys on our dept. from other departments with lots of time as a FF. Most of the time their issue is getting them to break their old dept. habits. I try to see where a boot needs more or less of my attention and I do believe they need to show their appreciation for where they are. What I don't see is new guys volunteering for special details or training like we used to. Nobody calls in to volunteer when staffing is critical during major incidents. Read up on the Firefighters Bill of Rights and you can see where it is trickier to treat guys like we used to when I was a boot. For the record, I was always treated well by the vets, took my share of *BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP* and tried to learn as much as I could by looking and listening.
I think he is going to have a very long probationary year. He doesn't realize how much extra work the crew has to put in on his behalf. Making coffee and taking care of the crew is the LEAST he can do.
More importantly, his needs to count on his crew to help him make it through probation. If his crew doesn't feel like he is pulling his weight, they aren't going to go out of their way to help him.
The question you really have to ask is how this guy got hired in the first place. Also, what was he told during his initial training period. The department should take a good look in the mirror and see how this guy slipped through. The expectations should have been made VERY clear to him during the academy (or initial training period).
There are hundreds of men and women who would LOVE to be "taken advantage of."
On the flip side, if this guy were to realize the importance of taking care of HIS crew, the results would be spectacular. A crew who likes and respects their rookie, they will go to the ends of the earth to "take care of their guy".
firemedic301
10-03-08, 23:11
I think he is going to have a very long probationary year. He doesn't realize how much extra work the crew has to put in on his behalf. Making coffee and taking care of the crew is the LEAST he can do.
More importantly, his needs to count on his crew to help him make it through probation. If his crew doesn't feel like he is pulling his weight, they aren't going to go out of their way to help him.
The question you really have to ask is how this guy got hired in the first place. Also, what was he told during his initial training period. The department should take a good look in the mirror and see how this guy slipped through. The expectations should have been made VERY clear to him during the academy (or initial training period).
There are hundreds of men and women who would LOVE to be "taken advantage of."
On the flip side, if this guy were to realize the importance of taking care of HIS crew, the results would be spectacular. A crew who likes and respects their rookie, they will go to the ends of the earth to "take care of their guy".
VERY VERY well put!!!!
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