View Full Version : BLACK vs. YELLOW turnouts.
Recently one of the fire departments in the Vegas Valley went to BLACK turnouts. I personally think they look really good.
I know most of the departments in "SOCAL" wear yellow and a few in central and "NORCAL" wear Black. Can somebody please tell me the pros & cons of BLACK turnouts? Please don't tell me they're too hot... We fight fire for god sake.
The only "CONS" I can think of, off the top of my head are, it would be hard to tell if they were dirty, i.e. blood or smoke.
The only "PROS" I can think of is they look bad a$$.
If you wear black, why or why don't you like them?
If you wear yellow, why or why don't you like them?
KungFooPanda
11-01-08, 00:51
if i was a super model, i wouldn't mind wearing black (makes the husky petites look smaller) but since we're in that socal heat zone, standing around in sunshine WE ALL KNOW DARKER COLORS attract/retain more heat, i would NOT be in favor of the switch.
i think one of the real issues is visible wear and tear. harder to see.
I think the Black looks a lot better. The only major con i have heard is visibility. This would only be the case if the reflective was covered, like maybe in a collapse. I like the looks of the black more, but i really dont care as long as i am riding in a red truck/engine.
We roll with the black bunkers up here in Northern Cali. I like the looks of them better than yellow but they sure do get hot on a scorching day in the sun on an MVA.
But then again I am told that all bunkers get hot in the sun. Just remember that once you go black you will never go back suckas!
That's going be fun standing out in the hot desert sun on the natural gas leak, in mid July.
Working for Ft Irwin, I wore tan and then black. I have to say that the Morning Pride bunkers we spec'd out for the black fit great were really light weight and had a good cut to them. No difference in heat as far as the sun, and its hot out here in the desert. I personally like black better. The nice thing about the black is that when they have been comprimised from too much heat exposure they discolor much more than yellow or tan. A lot easier to tell when they are OOS.
Black would be my choice. We wear tan or natural here. The thing I don't like is that the color doesn't hide the stains very well. I've had a couple of LOL's (little old ladies) look at me with wide eyes when coming into their home. Even after cleaning they "look" dirty. Black would hide the stains a little better I think. Hot is hot and when sweat is running down the... Well you get the picture. Visibility at night may be a factor but hopefully the reflective stuff is doing its job.
LVLadder1 I hope you don't mind if I take your post one step further.
We are going to be writing a new spec for turnouts soon. In addition to the color I'd like to know what brand and model of turnouts you wear? Is there anything your department has specifically added to your turnouts that you really like? Mask pocket on jacket, light holders, glove clip, etc... Do your turnouts have any added reflective tape or just the band on the leg and the two on the jacket? Anything you like or dislike on your stuff?
If you have a copy of your department's spec and could send it to me I'd appreciate it. Thanks for the info...
Very good point. Black does hide dirt better. It also is very visible at night because the reflective material really contrasts against the black.
I am partial to the morning pride or lions as far as brands go. The last pair of bunkers I wore at the fort fit really well and had an athletic ergo cut. The moved really well when working. They were black morning pride. I personally like the spec that I am wearing now at SBCoFD. Really happy with the pocket configuration and features.
If memory serves me right there are a few differences between the Turnout colors. The primary differences are tensile strength, visibility and heat absorbtion.
For some reason because of how the black Turnouts are dyed they have a higher tensile strength and are actually stronger than tan and natural colored. I'm not a Rocket Scientist nor a Chemist so it's a bit over my head exactly why..... What I've professionally seen is that if you get hung-up on a nail or multiple nails, they're still gonna rip and tear.
As far as visibility goes, the Reflective Striping does stand-out against the black better, but at a distance you lose the outlining effect that you get with the lighter colors. Honestly, if you're concerned about not being able to find a colleague in a collapse I don't necessarily buy-off on that because I know I teach to search with a TIC, Delsar Equipment, Searchcam and use our Equipment to help make the search more efficient. As far as visibility after a RIC Activation goes, it's not an issue to me because when it goes bad the majority of times the visibility is crap anyways. If this is a concern to you then my suggestion is to preach, use and focus on maintaining excellent communications with the other Crews. Another idea is to use tag-lines when you're in those conditions. Just a couple of thoughts on that.....
While we were reviewing the change of Turnouts we had a Crew set both colors out in the sun and use a Heat Gun to see how much heat was actually absorbed from the sun. The difference shocked even me; the black Turnouts were 10 degrees or so hotter. I thought it was going to be a "night and day" difference. As lvladder1 said earlier, hot is hot so while working at a fire it's not an issue. If 10 degrees is a huge deal to you and your Department than my suggestion is to keep a good eye on your personnel and ensure they get into rehab earlier, which is a great practice anyways.
During some recent training a FF of mine and I got to talk to a group of Guys from San Diego Fire/Rescue that were on their Turnout Committee. It seemed that the Older Guys didn't want the change (yeah, I know not your "Surprised Face") and the Young Bucks were all over it. Their .02 was that they really liked the black. With their traditional style helmets, they look sweet.....
I was a skeptic of the black, but now being in them for this long the Morning Pride specs that we have are very comfortable, look nice and are just another set of Turnouts. Our gear has (2) Radio Clips, a Flashlight Clip and Strap, Compartments inside the pockets for your Tools (Raph stop laughing and giggling), a Ring on the left hip (for additional Flashlight/Maglite), a pocket about 3-4" down the zipper to store your Accountability Tags or whatever you want to use it for, (2) Radio Pockets, no Mask Bag built-in which i actually like and the built-in FF Rescue System that is required per NFPA. The only thing that I hope we add the next time we buy Turnouts is the built-in Hi-Vis Vest, but who knows what else is gonna be required by the time we place another order.
Hope this helps, this is just what I can remember and a bit of my .02 so take it as such.
built-in Hi-Vis Vest, but who knows what else is gonna be required by the time we place another order.
I am sure that I will catch some flak here but I agree with the above statement. We should have our Hi-Viz vests built into the turnout coats. I know, I know, "It won't look cool..." I don't care about cool as much as what is the smartest way to do it.
Just my opinion. I could be wrong...
LeonAsesino
05-27-10, 21:56
Hello everyone, I have used this site for the past year or so for valuable info. but never really had the intent of posting on the site until I read a couple posts on the black vs. yellow turnouts thread. I kinda feel like there is some misinformation posted and wanted to clear up a couple things that might be useful to some members here. I have been a member of the fire service for the past 10 years and career for 6 and have had the opportunity to wear bumble bee yellow, khaki as well as the black. I work in the desert where the temp. ranges from 20 F in the winter to 130 F in the summer. I agree that when your interior on a fire hot is hot, but when your standing on the boiling pavement in the heat of the summer, I ask why be hotter than you need to be? Why add undue stess, sweating and exertion to an already challenging task? This is what black turnouts do. I did a couple tests with a colleague when we got the black stuff and these were the results:
Weight test: I donned full ppe with scba and got on the scale
Black was 5 lbs heavier than khaki( might be due to diff. Mfg, but 5 lb is still 5 lb.)
Ambient temp. test: I put a khaki and black coat on the ground next to eachother in direct sunlight with an ambient air temperature of 75 F for 15 minutes. I then measured the inner temp with a heat gun and found after 15 minutes the black was 15 F hotter than the khaki! This was only for 15 minutes @ 75 F, imagine 120 F for 1 1/2 hrs. out on the highway at a working call. Any one who thinks this is no big deal hasn't ever done it! I have and will be the 1st one to tell you it blows. Then you can go another direction and if you're out there in the middle of the night with no lighting you're a sitting duck from drunks and people not paying attention. The vests are only reqd on federal and state highways and you know us firemen if you don't have to wear it you probably won't. I would say if you're in black at night put on as much reflective $&*t as you can find because the amount you have sewn on your gear isn't nearly enough!
In a job where things like pacing yourself and hydration and calming yourself down in a stressful environment are taught why do we add undue stress to "look cool?" because to me it's not worth it. I think there is a place for this gear, but its not in southern california. We have this joke between a couple guys I work with where we call the khaki stuff "summer gear" and the black stuff "winter gear". And a lot of us rock our summer gear around this time of year for obvious reasons. It doesn;t take a rocket scientist to know that black attracts the heat. I hope this post helps some of you guys out there on equipment comittees who are thinking of going to black and all I can say is get a couple of loaner sets and have guys of different age and size try them out and see what the concensus is. If they work then great, but don't just jump into something because you'll be doing your members an injustice. Thanks for letting me ramble and clear up a couple things.
Fortunate for us today's turnouts are subjected to a much higher standard than your test. Color is not going to change the weight of a set of turnouts as you indicate in your test. As for working hard in 130 temp in full turnouts for a 1 1/2 hours at a traffic collision, get real, heat and dehydration will be the issue in any set of turnouts, no matter what color they are.
In your short career of 6 years as a fulltime firefighter, and 4 years as a ? Do you really think that matches the time and experience of the turnouts that have been used for generations without default? I think your conclussions are self serving, and have no merit. Perhaps you should contact some of the committee members who have invested countless hours on NFPA and Safety committee's to assure our turnouts, regardless of color, meet the highest standard, and afford us the greatest protection. As for reflectivity and visibility, unless you specify the to mfg to add more reflective stripes, than they are no more visible than any other set of turnouts in a dark atmosphere.
Hello everyone, I have used this site for the past year or so for valuable info. but never really had the intent of posting on the site until I read a couple posts on the black vs. yellow turnouts thread. I kinda feel like there is some misinformation posted and wanted to clear up a couple things that might be useful to some members here. I have been a member of the fire service for the past 10 years and career for 6 and have had the opportunity to wear bumble bee yellow, khaki as well as the black. I work in the desert where the temp. ranges from 20 F in the winter to 130 F in the summer. I agree that when your interior on a fire hot is hot, but when your standing on the boiling pavement in the heat of the summer, I ask why be hotter than you need to be? Why add undue stess, sweating and exertion to an already challenging task? This is what black turnouts do. I did a couple tests with a colleague when we got the black stuff and these were the results:
Weight test: I donned full ppe with scba and got on the scale
Black was 5 lbs heavier than khaki( might be due to diff. Mfg, but 5 lb is still 5 lb.)
Ambient temp. test: I put a khaki and black coat on the ground next to eachother in direct sunlight with an ambient air temperature of 75 F for 15 minutes. I then measured the inner temp with a heat gun and found after 15 minutes the black was 15 F hotter than the khaki! This was only for 15 minutes @ 75 F, imagine 120 F for 1 1/2 hrs. out on the highway at a working call. Any one who thinks this is no big deal hasn't ever done it! I have and will be the 1st one to tell you it blows. Then you can go another direction and if you're out there in the middle of the night with no lighting you're a sitting duck from drunks and people not paying attention. The vests are only reqd on federal and state highways and you know us firemen if you don't have to wear it you probably won't. I would say if you're in black at night put on as much reflective $&*t as you can find because the amount you have sewn on your gear isn't nearly enough!
In a job where things like pacing yourself and hydration and calming yourself down in a stressful environment are taught why do we add undue stress to "look cool?" because to me it's not worth it. I think there is a place for this gear, but its not in southern california. We have this joke between a couple guys I work with where we call the khaki stuff "summer gear" and the black stuff "winter gear". And a lot of us rock our summer gear around this time of year for obvious reasons. It doesn;t take a rocket scientist to know that black attracts the heat. I hope this post helps some of you guys out there on equipment comittees who are thinking of going to black and all I can say is get a couple of loaner sets and have guys of different age and size try them out and see what the concensus is. If they work then great, but don't just jump into something because you'll be doing your members an injustice. Thanks for letting me ramble and clear up a couple things.
Holy cow!!!! Nice mirage of test results, you gotta get out of the desert!!! What about those yellows and khaki's during the winter,,BRRRR, they must be 10-15 degrees colder than the black gear...How do you guys deal with that in the middle of a winter night in the desert? A couple heat packs under the pits... I bet then your wishing you LOOKED COOL then!! You obviously don't have a clue.. If it's HOT it's HOT, if it's COLD it's COLD, Color has nothing to do with it. Next your going to say leather helmets put too much stress on your SPINE......;)..
Berdoo Beau
05-30-10, 18:23
Leather helmets put too much stress on your spine.
Berdoo Beau
05-30-10, 18:24
Sorry..... couldn't help myself.
Leather helmets put too much stress on your spine.
If that were true every risk manager would be calling for them to be replaced. Workers comp would be through the ceiling.
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