View Full Version : 2 man engines!!??
Ok, I just read the article of Barstow fire protection district going to a 2 man engine company when someone calls in sick or takes a leave. WTF???
To BFPD, Why are you going backwards? How much more unsafe can you get?
I worked on a 2 person engine, and it's putting Firefighters lives at risk, all to save money! Yea Palm Springs does the samething.. Its not right!
Why not just contract with County Fire and save the 3 person Engine?? Come on people, say something!
Johnny on the spot
11-26-08, 22:46
yeah truckman, I just read that article too. That is very alarming. I am uneasy about the next few years city budgets here too, I hope that would not happen to us, but almost anything is possible. If we just cut back to 3 man staffing we would lose some really good people and maybe even myself. And if Barstow "makes" 2-O staffing work, then other cities may get the idea that "if 2 man staffing works for them, then 3 man staffing can work for us!" or something like that. This is lame with a capital "AME".
Johnny,
There lies the problem; 2 person Engines do NOT work, regardless of what management says! We should all be worried about letting Chiefs make those types of decisions.. Since when is ok to screw with our safety??
Think about it. 1 drives/pumps, and takes IC... The other is pulling lines and WAITING for other crews to be able to make an attack. And that is just a bread & butter fire.. think about all the other calls that require at least 4 people.
I have heard all the arguments from other that work on 2 person engines and say its not that bad! BS
I worked on them also, and we are lucky nobody has been seriously injured or killed because of it!
Cal Fire Riverside has finally went to 3 person companies, as did City of Highland and Yuciapa!
desertmedic
11-27-08, 10:12
From what I am hearing from county fire folks they are having their own financial woes... To the effect that even if they wanted too they wouldnt be able to afford manning Barstow at this time. Its a very unfortunate thing, especially since I live in Barstow. Fortunately we have a neighboring agency that runs four man engines and readily throws an engine or two to Barstow for assistance. The issue is this though... If theres a major incident on the marine base or on the freeway Barstow is on their own. And if its mid week during the day PCF's are out of the question. I guess its time to start our own fire brigade... :eek:
firemedic301
11-27-08, 10:28
From what I am hearing from county fire folks they are having their own financial woes... To the effect that even if they wanted too they wouldnt be able to afford manning Barstow at this time. Its a very unfortunate thing, especially since I live in Barstow. Fortunately we have a neighboring agency that runs four man engines and readily throws an engine or two to Barstow for assistance. The issue is this though... If theres a major incident on the marine base or on the freeway Barstow is on their own. And if its mid week during the day PCF's are out of the question. I guess its time to start our own fire brigade... :eek:
Sign me up I will roll out to the Sand Box and fight next to ya!!!!! :D
From what I am hearing from county fire folks they are having their own financial woes... To the effect that even if they wanted too they wouldnt be able to afford manning Barstow at this time. Its a very unfortunate thing, especially since I live in Barstow. Fortunately we have a neighboring agency that runs four man engines and readily throws an engine or two to Barstow for assistance. The issue is this though... If theres a major incident on the marine base or on the freeway Barstow is on their own. And if its mid week during the day PCF's are out of the question. I guess its time to start our own fire brigade... :eek:
VIVA la MCLB!!!!
It's amazing that BFPD was one of the fisrt fire departments to have paramedics in the State... Now they're are going back to 2 man companies? Wow!!! What a step backward.
desertmedic
11-27-08, 14:22
Los Bomberos Locos... Steve as FC! Any takers for BC? Billy, I nominate you! I just wanna be on the squad. ;)
Is dropping to 2/0 staffing for Barstow a step backward? Everyone knows that dropping from 3/0 to 2/0 staffing is a MONUMENTAL step in the wrong direction. Nobody is saying it isn't.
Here's the issue that we are ALL facing. The state is out of money. Every city's revenue is less than projected. Whether your revenue is based on oil, property taxes, building permit fees, sales or property tax, everyone is being impacted.
You may not realize that on average 71% of a city's budget is spent on public safety (police and fire). I am a union member just like the rest of you. I encourage you to take of your union hat and think for a moment of how you can save money? In this case, the Barstow FD has identified that if they eliminate constant staffing, they can reduce their overtime cost by $300,000. That's a huge impact.
As a union member, I see the danger in it. Selfishly, I don't want my city to do the same thing. While we don't count on overtime to pay our bills, it sure makes it easier to pay the bills.
We all need to take a look around. The economy is continuing to worsen. Sacramento closing stations, Anaheim rolling brown outs, Orange City not hiring after sending a bunch to backgrounds, Ontario not opening the station they were planning on, Long Beach canceling their academy for '09, LA City considering a hiring freeze for Police and Fire.
Hunker down, it's going to get much worse. It's only just beginning. Decide if you really need that new truck or that boat.
Stay safe,
ladderpiper
11-29-08, 12:54
I am with ya on that BC Lepore. Having 20+ years in, I'm sure you have seen hard times before, but have they ever been this bad?
I'm hearing alot of the old guys say, "No."
For us guys that get their checks from the State budget, it is very scary. I have been counting my pennies for sure.
I was mandatoried for a ton of overtime this year, and I have socked it away. Who knows what next year holds. :confused:
Ladder Piper,
I gues I am one of the "old" guys now. Actually, I have 22 years on and I consider myself a middle of the road guy (although I plan on retiring in 6 years).
No, I have NEVER seen it this bad. More importantly, I see it getting much worse. Hang on, it's going to be a very rough road ahead.......:eek:
firemedicmatt
12-01-08, 08:32
Whats next, Engines manned by the Engineer only? The Engineer can cross train as the Medic and the Captain. Duel Function will now be triple function.
There is no question the economy has taken a serious dump and everyone, including US will be hit hard! I am surprisingly shocked we haven't been hit as hard as some of the private business's.
Either way, even though times are tough it is no reason to go backward and staff engines with 2 people. I worked on those types of engines only 9 yrs ago at CDF-Riverside.
The gold brass needs to find other areas to make cuts. Like Administration and other related services.
Fireman, We will be required to do A LOT MORE in our daily routine if we want to stay employed, because it will only be a matter of time before Southern Cal fire depts start closing stations nad laying firefighters off! Either way, WE NEED TO FIGHT NOT TO HAVE 2 PERSON COMPANIES....ITS WRONG, UNSAFE AND PEOPLE WILL DIE!
[QUOTE=BCLepore;1869]Is dropping to 2/0 staffing for Barstow a step backward? Everyone knows that dropping from 3/0 to 2/0 staffing is a MONUMENTAL step in the wrong direction. Nobody is saying it isn't.
QUOTE]
Yes..... Yes it is...
Tman,
Keep in mind that "the gold badges" are guys just like you. The only difference between you and me is that I took one more test. Knowing you as well as I do, I am sure it's just a matter of time before you too have a gold badge.
Having said that, how would you mysteriously come up with money to pay the firefighters salary so you can keep 3 on a Barstow engine? We are not magicians.
To the poster who asked if the next step was to go to a 1 man engine: Newsflash - they already exist....
Paul, sorry Chief LePore...your right; Chiefs are just like the rest of us. Sorry about that. Didn't mean to throw a dagger at you.
My point was that there has to be a way to salvage a 3 person engine. Either by down sizing city hall or through attritation, there has to be a way. I know that chiefs are not magicians and you guys with the gold work your tails off to prevent things like this from happening; however I have seen personal agendas playout in situations such as this, so I always have some sort of reservation when I hear a chief say there is no alternative. Sorry, just my opinion/feelings.
As for the future gold badge... Uh No..
One person engines! Yet Again, Chief LePore is correct. They are all over the place, including California.
Trkmant46
Tman,
I agree with you, there has to be another way. Unfortunately, on average 71% of a city's budget goes to public safety (Police and Fire). While I cannot quote the budget for the Barstow Fire Department, I can tell you that the cost of a four person engine company is over 1 million dollars per your. When you factor in the cost of an engine housed in a fire station, it's generally figured to be 1.3 million per year.
This is a huge impact to any city budget. I am very fortunate. My department has four on the engine and we recently went from five to four on the truck. It's going to be a monumental fight to keep all of our fire houses and our staffing at the current level.
The governor stated today that the state is in a financial crisis. I believe him. What this means is that things are going to continue to get worse.
I learned today that San Bernadino County recently cancelled their 15 person recruit academy.
Hang on..........
firemedicmatt
12-03-08, 08:16
I know of one man pumps but not one man engines, thats just retarded. I cant even see how a one person engine could function properly, my original post was suppose to be sarcastic.
Can someone chime me in on what department operates a one man engine and how it functions?
And don't tell me my department.
Well, I will start it out with a department with a 1 man truck. Your department absorbed the department - Lynwood. I am sure others will chime in with other deparments that staff with 1 person.
It's important for you to remember that YOUR department is fairly well staffed and has lots of money. Not all are so fortunate.........
Palms Springs FD ARFF have one on an ARFF rig.......
Two of their 5 engines are staffed with two people.
I am in a Management 2E class right now. I will poll the class and find out more.......
firemedicmatt: There are still 1 person engines in this state! Cal fire still has a few and smaller depts. still run them also...
Chief..4-5 person trucks?! lucky you...ours might be taken away soon!
I have heard city managers complain before that the majority of a cities budget goes to salaries and public safety. Thats huge! And know with the Guv'ner saying we are in a financial disaster, we will surely get hit soon!
Tman,
I am in a class with one of your guys with significant administrative background. He told me yesterday that your department is facing a significant deficit. Hang on, here it comes.
Chief LePore,
Yes we are facing a significant deficit! The sad fact is a lot of our guys act like it will never hit us. They really believe we are un-touchable in terms of our budget. The writing has been on the wall for everyone for sometime now. It's just a matter of when now.
Maybe we can join depts and save some money?? lol
Take care Chief
Hello -
With the current budget shortfall pegged at 16 Billion and the projected shortfall to reach 28 Billion by the end of June 2009 something has got to give. We are rapidly approaching a point of "no return". Something in Sacramento has got to be done and soon. Unfortunately, change is more than likely coming, if it hasn't already, and it will have an effect on many of our departments.
A local politician explained it to a group of us this way. He said if we were to close down the entire UC and CSU systems for one year, we could save roughly 8 Billion dollars. If the entire California Department of Corrections system was completely shut down for an entire year we could save another approximately 14 Billion. That still leaves us with a 4 Billion dollar gap to fill.
While neither of the above options are very realistic it does go to show that we have got ourselves in quite a pickle. Hopefully prudent and dynamic leadership will get the bus turned around and headed in the right direction; at the state level as well as within our city and department administration. We can all do our part to help our departments by being a part of the solution instead of a contributor to the problems. I like the advice from BCLePore and am glad that we have some of the "old" guys who care enough to share it.
Just my perspecitve of course.
Ok, I just read the article of Barstow fire protection district going to a 2 man engine company when someone calls in sick or takes a leave. WTF???
To BFPD, Why are you going backwards? How much more unsafe can you get?
I worked on a 2 person engine, and it's putting Firefighters lives at risk, all to save money! Yea Palm Springs does the samething.. Its not right!
Why not just contract with County Fire and save the 3 person Engine?? Come on people, say something!
They will just rely on the Marine Base, and not give it a second thought.
I also heard that they'll charge for a full crew regaurdless of how many are actually on the engine.
desertmedic
12-28-08, 17:19
Heres how Barstow is staffing.. They have 2 career stations. FS 1 is staffed with ME361 (career), T361 (PCF), and E361A (PCF). FS 3 is staffed with ME363 (career) and an OES rig. ME361 is staffed with 3 and ME363 is staffed with 2. If somebody sicks out at 3's the guy left goes to 1's to make it a 4 man engine. Then 3's is left dark. Hope that makes sense...
Livin' in GOD's Country
12-28-08, 17:48
Sorry to go against the chief, nut not all (brass) Chiefs are like us. Some lose the nerve to stand up for what is right and some are there just for the money. I am glad that our current chief is not one to forget where he came from and understands the safety issues involved here. So I know he will have the support from line. When will the public learn that you just might have to be responsible and pay taxes for all the services they demand?
"Sorry to go against the chief, nut not all (brass) Chiefs are like us."
I am not sure if this is directed at me? If so, I have no idea of what this means???
"Some lose the nerve to stand up for what is right and some are there just for the money."
Let me make it perfectly clear when I say that I am NOT in a position as a Battalion Chief to make decisions on staffing, however, do you really think that ANY Fire Chief stands by idly while he is directed by his boss to make budget cuts?
The Fire Chief has a boss, just like you and I do. The way it works is that these meetings occur behind closed doors. The FC gets to pitch his case. In tough times like these, it's unlikely that the FC will win the argument. As I have said in previous posts, over 70% of the city budget goes to police and fire. How would you balance a REAL budget deficit in your agency?
"I am glad that our current chief is not one to forget where he came from and understands the safety issues involved here."
I wish him the best. He sounds like a strong Chief.
"So I know he will have the support from line."
While this is extremely important, he REPORTS to the Ciity Managar, Board of Fire COmmissioners etc.
"When will the public learn that you just might have to be responsible and pay taxes for all the services they demand?"
Here is the real issue. What exactly does this mean? What is the standard? Is it 4 on an engine and 5 on a truck? Is anything else less than acceptable?
In my city, we are fighting to keep our staffing at four and four. It can be a tough argument when we are surrounded by LA and Orange County who have 3 and 3 in some stations.
How do you justify it when LA County and Long Beach meet on a run in the northwest corner of the city. The city manager sees LA County Engine 122 with three on the rig. He looks at Long Beach Engine 9 with four and asks why. It a hard position to defent why our neighbors (a very major, well-respected dpartment - LA County can do the job with 3 and we need 4)
So far, our fire chief (with SIGNIFICANT help from our union) have been able to maintain our staffing levels. So far, we have not had to close any stations or take any rigs out of service. We are facing a $740K budget shortfall to the fire department. The FC has announced that he is not going to fill the open AC spot (Bob Espinosa just became the FC in Rialto). This will save $200K. Where does the rest come from? I don't know, it's not my decision.
The Fire Chief has been told that there will also be a mid-year budget reduction. Who know how much this will be. As I have said earlier, I think it's just beginning.
limeyellowfellow
12-31-08, 09:00
Hey guys,
We are also starting to feel the pinch here in AZ. Concerning the 1 man engines, I agree they are not the way to do business. One person is the engineer and firefighter. There is no rescue, no ventilation until more help arrives. Back in the early 90s I was part of a large department which ran 1 man engines. We had a great paid on call program and I never showed up at a structure fire without a few POC's waiting on scene, so I was never truly a "1 man engine" I think departments should look at adding POC's or volunteers to fill in the staffing gap [I]in the short term.[I] We need to quit whining and hunker down and relearn the basics. Look in "Ride the Devil Wind" and you see 2 man engines. There are lots of 2 man engines around the country. In areas with a low call volume it makes sense to lower staffing to 2. Would you rather have 2 - 4 man engines or all of the engines at 2? If the unions don't start trying to come up with realistic solutions, the fire dept and community as a whole will suffer. Yes, we provide one of the most important services in a community, but we are not in the public's eye everyday. What do you think will happens when the trash is piling up at the curb so the city can keep the engines at 4?
Just my $.02
Livin' in GOD's Country
12-31-08, 12:10
Chief Lepore,
My comments are not directed toward you. I would never make such strong comments to anyone, especially toward a chief officer, without knowing and working with him or her. Our department, in the past, has had a Fire Chief, (Chief Engineer) that blatantly showed his true colors. It was obvious, in his actions that he was brought in to bring infighting among union members, and break off communications between our union board and city administration. This was the lowest of personnel moral and productivity in my 18 years here and probably the lowest in more years then that.
My comment regarding the responsibility of citizens and possibility of increase taxes is a reference to our social economical make-up. We are a predominately-low income and large government subsidized housing. We are even seeing an increase in foreclosure from people getting into home loans that they were not “qualified” financially. This in turn has lead to an increase in structure fires, in a city that has many structure fires to start with.
Now back to the topic, “two person” engine crews. With the safety standard of “two in two out” in play, do you not see the importance of having a four-person or at least 3-person engine crew? Only with these resources are you able to set up and get in play an aggressive safe fire attack to save a structure on fire. Moreover, at the least to set up good exposure protection to save neighboring structures. In regards to EMS calls, studies show it takes four people to properly assess and treat a “true” medical aid.
I have been on many calls that I hear, from citizens, “What took you so long”, “Why are not doing anything” Where is all your help”. I try to take the time, after the call, to educate the citizens on those “why” questions. Without increase funding, in the form of taxes, the services cannot get to the level that is needed and/or demanded by them.
Chief, I hope this explains my opinion further, and no ill feelings between us. Check out my recipes I posted, am sure you will enjoy them.
P.S. “Sorry to go against the chief, nut not all (brass) Chiefs are like us.”
Sorry this was a typo.
Thanks for clarifying your point. I want to reiterate that we are on the same team here. I too am still a PROUD member of my union.
As I have said in the past, these are very difficult times. What I believe the staffing of an engine is irrevelant, it's up to your city founders.
I hear the old guys talk about 6 person engine companies. In their minds, firefighters would die if they were cut to only 5 people on an engine.
The intent of my post was to illustrate the fact that we are all fighting the same battles. It's important to realize that the people in power above us really do have our best interest and the best interest of the department in mind. Yes, I do realize that there are always exceptions to the rule. I understand that some Fire Chiefs do not.
It's up to us to take care of each other. Remember, one thing that cannot be taken away by any politician is our morale and comraderie in the fire station. Do not ever lose the passion that drew you to this profession in the first place.....
Stay safe everyone!
Rialto is also being hit with budget problems. It has been proposed to go to a two man truck crew when there are more than 2 people off on a shift. (Rialto has their own ambulances and the 2 man ambulance crew is assigned to the truck on structure fires.) By adjusting and modifying some service line items, the new FC was able to delay the implementation of the two-person truck configuration for at least 30 days. I commend the new Chief for coming to a new FD in the middle of a poor economy and doing everything he can to keep the current staffing the same.
I cannot believe that a truck would respond to a fire with only 2 guys. I feel for you guys. There is no way you can be very effective with only 2 persons since there is always so much for them to do on a worker.
Talk about having to modify fire ground operations and assignments. You guys will loose an engine company right from the get go since the truck would need them assigned to them just to get all the truck operations done.
Are they going to add an engine to the response?
Good luck and stay safe.
Livin' in GOD's Country
01-03-09, 14:42
Jpizzle13,
You hit my point on the nails head. “Not all chiefs are alike”, I also commend your new chief for taking a bad idea to go to two person truck companies and getting the city administration to understand the dangers involved if that would happen. Hope he is able to continue the logical arguments for the sake of personnel and citizen safety.
God is that you?
Let me say having knowledge of both you and Chief Lepore's morales and values I think you would both be surprised as to how similar the Lepore & God's Country Fire Departments would be run. You are two men with very similar ideas.
Chief Lepore, you were one of the brothers who helped me get to where I am now and Living in god's country is one of the brothers that trained me when I got here.
For me having very little knowledge of Fire Department or City management I am at a loss for words when I hear of closing fire stations or a reduction of personnel. Listening to you "Old Guys" say that it will probably be much worse is very uneasy to a guy with a wife, a kid, two car payments, a mortgage, and a dog that eats way too much!
Are you not amazed when you hear the closing of stations or reduction of personnel on engines/ trucks as a solution to our budget woes? How about a pancake breakfast?
I can not tell you that being on even a simple medical aid in our city requires that you be very "heads up" on your surroundings.
Chief I know you city's demographics are very similar to ours. Last shift I had to remove a shotgun that was in the reach of our patient. Gave it to our 4th guy to secure. Seemed like it made sense to have the "extra guy" in that situation. Rialto is thinking of having a 2-man truck company? How do you think truck ops will be when assisted by 2 guys that have been up all night riding on the ambulance? You were on an ambulance way back when!
I think we need to try and grow a culture of a union and admin working together.
What does your union do differently to assist the FC during budget woes?
How can the guys on the floor help with budget shortfalls?
Put me in coach.
firemedic301
01-04-09, 11:54
God is that you?
Let me say having knowledge of both you and Chief Lepore's morales and values I think you would both be surprised as to how similar the Lepore & God's Country Fire Departments would be run. You are two men with very similar ideas.
Chief Lepore, you were one of the brothers who helped me get to where I am now and Living in god's country is one of the brothers that trained me when I got here.
For me having very little knowledge of Fire Department or City management I am at a loss for words when I hear of closing fire stations or a reduction of personnel. Listening to you "Old Guys" say that it will probably be much worse is very uneasy to a guy with a wife, a kid, two car payments, a mortgage, and a dog that eats way too much!
Are you not amazed when you hear the closing of stations or reduction of personnel on engines/ trucks as a solution to our budget woes? How about a pancake breakfast?
I can not tell you that being on even a simple medical aid in our city requires that you be very "heads up" on your surroundings.
Chief I know you city's demographics are very similar to ours. Last shift I had to remove a shotgun that was in the reach of our patient. Gave it to our 4th guy to secure. Seemed like it made sense to have the "extra guy" in that situation. Rialto is thinking of having a 2-man truck company? How do you think truck ops will be when assisted by 2 guys that have been up all night riding on the ambulance? You were on an ambulance way back when!
I think we need to try and grow a culture of a union and admin working together.
What does your union do differently to assist the FC during budget woes?
How can the guys on the floor help with budget shortfalls?
Put me in coach.
I was witness to Apple Valley Fire District having to "LAY-OFF" 3 quarters of their Dept in '96ish due to a budget cut (prop 218???). I don't know the exact number of guy's that lost their jobs but it was in the neighborhood of 30ish of their 45-46 guy's and the front page newspaper picture of a 20+ year man HANDING his badge to the Fire Chief!!!! Their is reality for ya, 5 Stations to 1 and a half in 1 week. I was working Valley Amb. part-time and it was not unusual to wait 20-25 minutes on seen of a CPR (or working medical aid or TC) for AVFD or in one case having the FAMILY member ride in bagging the pt. Hope I NEVER have to live that again.
I just hope nobody loses their jobs and WAKE UP and DOWN SIZE your financial lives!!!! Maybe drive the same car after it is paid off, or REFI and just lower your interest rate and NOT take money out, just a thought. I understand kids in school is a given but man a lot of us spend some money way loosely.
Just a little more "the sky is falling" panic for ya.
limeyellowfellow.....I think your going way in the wrong direction. My department has a budget shortfall right now and I hope one of the options they seriously consider is shutting down and putting locks on all the doors of the pcf stations. In your mind you think it is ok to show up with a one or two MAN engine. It isn't enough to just show up. How effective are you? How safe are you? One man? Give me a break. We need to stop doing more with less. I remember saying this a long time ago. I finally thought we were getting past this mentality. PCF's are inconsistent at best....what standards do they have? Their training and exp. is not that of a career GUY. Of course there are some exceptions but for the most part thats how it is. So yes you will show up with a couple of kids....but again how effective and safe are you? I think we would be better off shutting down the PCF's running a few more calls out of the career stations to pick up the slack. If it comes to cuts they need to be made in the part time, admin, non safety and support services areas.
limeyellowfellow
01-08-09, 11:55
JKern78,
I may have mis-represented where my support rests. I do not advocate 1 man engines. What I am saying is if there are stations which have lower runs,
why not consider shifting their 3rd person to a busier company or one which is in a high risk area and adding POC's or a live-in or two. This would be a short term solution during this financial crisis until the funding was available to increase staffing again. I would rather have a crew of 2 show up at my house fire from the closest station then having a 4 person crew show up from a farther station because the closest station was shut down. All I am saying is we have to come up with workable solutions. If we don't and refuse to be flexible some politician will do it for us. Wasn't it Prop 13 in the 70s that gutted the California fire service? I'd hate to see that again.
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