View Full Version : Should Unions spend thousands of union members monies on repeat defenders.
First off I would like to say I am a full supporter of unions. I believe they are a necessity in the fire service and many other professions. We need unions to protect our working conditions, wages, and to make sure are rights are protected in the work place. But I would like your opinions on weather or not unions should spend thousands of dollars of union members monies on attorneys defending employees who continuously get in trouble, some times for the same offenses they have already been written up for in the past, and to get the employees off of disciplinary actions based on technicalities in procedures when they know the employees committed the offense. What do you think?
Scuba Out
Don’t dive were it stinks!
TaylorMade
03-31-08, 00:35
Great Question. It has been asked thousands of times across the country by other members of the IAFF.
I've seen this argued over many times over the last 25 years. The bottom line is that since the union has an obligation to represent the member, it is up to the member to ensure that he/she faces responsibility for any miscalculations in better judgment.
I have seen policy after policy born as a reactionary measure to prevent further employees from performing unacceptable behavior.
Do I want my union fees spent on individuals that won't take responsibility for their own actions? Of course not. But I have seen it a dozen times during my career, and believe it or not, the Gen-Xr's and the Y's in our organization take more responsibility for what they do than the older members. Go figure.
I'm glad I only have 5 years left. The fire service is changing for the worse.
Great Question. It has been asked thousands of times across the country by other members of the IAFF.
I've seen this argued over many times over the last 25 years. The bottom line is that since the union has an obligation to represent the member, it is up to the member to ensure that he/she faces responsibility for any miscalculations in better judgment.
I have seen policy after policy born as a reactionary measure to prevent further employees from performing unacceptable behavior.
Do I want my union fees spent on individuals that won't take responsibility for their own actions? Of course not. But I have seen it a dozen times during my career, and believe it or not, the Gen-Xr's and the Y's in our organization take more responsibility for what they do than the older members. Go figure.
I'm glad I only have 5 years left. The fire service is changing for the worse.
Boy oh Boy Taylor....You sure are grumpy!!:(
Ash, I wouldn’t say Taylor is grumpy. He is just expressing his views on the subject. Do you have an opinion or do you even care?
Scuba out!
Don’t Dive were it stinks
Taylomade is not Grumpy. Its fact. People in the fire service now are more demanding and "what can you do for me" instead of what can the firefighter do for the fire service. The "me,me" mentality has people pushing the envelope and abusing our defense mechanism just as Scuba has indicated. We should be encouraging our people to take more responsibility for their actions.
Just an observation from Taylor's previous posts as well....not a dig.....anyway.....I do have an opinion. I do think it sucks that our Unions spend thousands on those that are constant problems. But I am also grateful that they will protect my job when it could be on the line. Now I'm not a F@$#-up, but if I do mess up, it is comforting to know you will have somebody in your corner. Isn't that one of the reasons we contribute to the Unions? Even the screw-ups? If they do it for one person, they gotta do it for all of us...even repeat offenders. And trust me, they aren't always happy about having to do it.
Sorry, Taylormade, just trying to joke around with you a little bit.
Late....
I think this is almost a catch 22. We want the union to bail us out if we make a mistake. What if it is a weird situation, and you are accused of the same mistake again. I wouldn't want to be left high and dry if I were in those shoes. However, if you make the same mistake repeatedly, then there is a problem with the employee, and maybe it shouldn't be our responsibility to pay for his/her screw up. How many times is to many? Should you get a clean slate if you are a model employee for a while, and years later, your stupidity shines through and you do it again?
Maybe their should be policies written to limit the amount of FREE assistance provided to repeat offenders.
Oh, and be careful who you joke with on here, some people take it personal, right ASH? Sorry about the rum jokes it wasn't a dig, but that's funny, I don't care who you are.
Stay in school.
Oh, and be careful who you joke with on here, some people take it personal, right ASH? Sorry about the rum jokes it wasn't a dig, but that's funny, I don't care who you are.
Stay in school.
LOL!!!!! No worries bro. Rippin' on each other is what the fire service is all about. :cool:
TaylorMade
04-05-08, 07:38
This was very interesting to watch. I give a response, and you boys go back and forth about it.
Ash, I am in no way offended by you saying that I am grumpy. I know it was meant as a jest yet with a slight shine of truth in the statement.
Yes I can portray myself in that manner on occasion. But I think that is why I enjoy the west coast 911 forum so much. I can say what I want and in the fashion and meaning I desire to deliver.
I can tell which members have less than 10 years on the job. When you reach the final stretch of your career, things will seem much clearer, and the discussions posed in this forum will be things that you have experienced many times over or will have at least seen occur.
I love the fire service with every thread in my body. My point was that over the years, attitudes towards the job have changed significantly. I continue to see people not take responsibility for their actions.
There was a time long ago when firefighters said, "I screwed up. It's my fault. Give me my punishment."
That's the fire service I yearn.
TaylorMade, I also yearn for the days when people would take responsibility for their actions..."I screwed up - it won't happen again". I remember when I screwed up (this one time) and it was a dumb mistake...so my captain pulled me aside and chewed me out. At the end of the session he said "Consider your @$$ chewed!" That truly was the end of it, and I remember that to this day. Nowadays, it doesn't seem like that happens anymore. Is it because admin thinks it won't work? Or, is it because employees today go away from that experience with the attitude of "I sure pulled that one off!". I know admin needs to treat everyone equally and not everyone will respond to the "good ol' talkin' to". When the union does defend someone for something ridiculous, they need to do what is required, but hopefully they (union) can pull the guy aside and say, "Hey dummy, don't do this again!"
I would hope that the trouble makers get some pressure put on them by the union membership.
We have not had that problem on my department, but I wouldn't want our money spent on the same people doing the same dumb things.
People need to step up and act grown.
I have seen both ends of the spectrum!
I have worked as a hose jockey in a "right to work state" and I am IAFF rep here.
If the union doesn’t enforce the smaller petty aspects of the disciplinary process commonly referred to the "technicalities" then management will get sloppier and sloppier in there enforcement of the disciplinary process to the point that these “slip-ups” they make will become past practices. Remember MOU identified procedures are intended to protect workers and management.
If we all follow the process dirt bags will go down river, good guys will be protected and all will be well!
If management chooses not to follow the process to the "t" they are hurting themselves and us by forcing us to spend money protecting the rights of individuals who knowingly broke the rules instead of them getting what they deserve.
One last thought... Unions are here to make sure "the punishment meets the crime", not to get individuals out of punishment as a whole!! If that’s not the case we all loose!! :rolleyes:
Very good point dhick! It's always good to look at both sides of the fence.
I've worked in the fire service for approximately 15 years. So there will be some here that have been around longer and some who have been around less.
In my 15 years in the fire service I have never been disciplined for anything. I've also never seen a hard working "rule following" employee ever get disciplined for the same offense twice. So for me the thought that we need the union protection for all these little screw ups we're doing is ridiculous. Sure accidents and mistakes happen, but if someone keeps screwing up by "accident" maybe they need to be seen the door for all of our protection.
That being said I can't blame the union for defending problem employees. Unfortunately we now live in a litigious society. We're either going to pay to defend these people or we're going to pay for not defending these people after they sue us.
I feel supervisors need to do their jobs better to deal with problems before they get out of control. And I'm not talking about battalion chiefs. If a captain needs to go to a BC to ask how to deal with an employee, that captain should leave his badge on the desk on his way out the door. I took a class recently and the instructor stated that "he believes the captain position is the back bone of the fire service". This wasn't the first time I've heard this statement and I'm not sure it is accurate. It should be stated that "the captain position should be the back bone of the fire service, but unfortunately few captain live up to that responsibility". A captain should be setting a standard for his crew to achieve, if one member of the crew begins to stray he gets them back on course immediately and the problem is solved.
I believe that by far the majority of fire dept employees want to do a good job, unfortunately though without leadership people can some times get out of control. It is the captains responsibility to insure that doesn't happen.
TaylorMade
04-12-08, 22:24
A captain should be setting a standard for his crew to achieve, if one member of the crew begins to stray he gets them back on course immediately and the problem is solved.
I believe that by far the majority of fire dept employees want to do a good job, unfortunately though without leadership people can some times get out of control. It is the captains responsibility to insure that doesn't happen.
Nice to hear from a level headed seasoned firefighter. If you are not a Captain already, you will be soon. Your thought process and analysis of this thread is spot on.
Nice to have you on board Brother.
Shorttimer
04-15-08, 23:36
It's really all about due process. I've seen heavy handed management try and crush people when simply counseling would do. I've seen them blow through progressive discipline when a few well placed words would work. Our employee relations committee has an off with his head mentality. Our unions have to protect all of us equally if we need it. I'm all for giving a F/U the best defense possible so when he gets fired he stays fired. The thing that bugs me most is by employee relations view, I can't handle problems at my level. Everything is a written notification going up the chain. I can't simply mention an issue to my chief and tell him, no worries, it's handled. We had a stretch where some of our rookies drove me nuts, but the last 5-6 years has been real good. I think it's the crop of Gulf War vets starting to come through.
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