Suing A City or FD

[firemedic301]

I REALLY don't want to stir up the hornets nest, but I just want to see how people feel about people that bring lawsuits against there own depts? I do absolutely see cases were a person is promoted and then have the rug yanked out from under them by "admin or the City". But hearing (hypothetically) about an individual that felt the testing process was "UNFAIR" to them, when everybody else took the same test and passed or scored higher then them, and then suing to get a job at the same dept. their suing. WOW, is all I can say about that. I must have been raised wrong or something, to think to myself that if I didn't pass and get hired, that I can just pull out the gender or race card I have been dealt and file a law suit and get a job I didn't deserve!!! I surely don't think I could look myself in the mirror. Anyway, sorry to ramble, just wanted to see how ya all felt about that one. Makes me want to vomit.
Nuke
Again this is all hypothetical!!!!:eek:

[RedBloodedAmerican]

If the test was made for the general populus ( of firefighter candidates ) and the great majority that took the test, with a great majority not being invited further in the process ( failing or low score ) then it should be obvious that its not a bad hand dealt to you ( exclusion ) but you just plain aren't cut out for the job at this point and the other qualified candidates succeeded above you.

I have found myself on the wrong side of the equation in my early bids to become a firefighter, as we all have ( unless you're the rare, perfect test taker, who only needed one application/test/oral to get a job and to you I say good riddance...in envy) and you take what is handed to you and attempt to improve yourself.

What you don't do is whine to the high heavens and beg/borrow/steal (sue) to get what you want. I understand its upsetting, I understand that you want to work for you're one dream department, but get over it, there are some outstanding ( and occasionly not so..) outstanding candidates out there and they rightfully got the position over you. Believe it or not, its not a conspiracy against you.

...and if you want the job that bad you may want to research medic school, or am i wrong? In the end it is all worth the frustration, hard work, blood, sweat, and occasional tear. So don't give up.

[fatcobra]

Red you are so right.

I have seen those people that feel like they are getting a bad wrap but it just does not appear to be the case.

Here in Vegas we have the Rule of 5, which means on a promotional exam admin has the choice to pick anyone in the top 5. I don’t know if it makes the process fair, but that is what we have. We have had folks come out #1 and been passed over during the whole list, but they have come back and taken the test and then promoted.

I guess it is what it is, and life isn’t fair for each of us from time to time. Sometimes it benefits the more book smart person, sometimes it benefits the more athletic, and sometimes it benefits those with the EO card.

I have never cared how a person gets a job or a promotion; I have only cared what they have done once they have it. And that’s the way it should be.


Or at least that is my opinion

[fyrglfr]

Some times the Department forces your hand to seek out legal action. They take a stance on issues that just aren’t right and they are not going to "be told" what to do no matter the issue. It really sucks when that's not the rout you want to go, but when you have no other choice......what else can you do?

[TaylorMade]

Some times the Department forces your hand to seek out legal action.....

I understand what you are saying Fyrglfr.

My opinion of initiating litigious action against my own organization would be dependent on the severity of the issue and how much history lies behind it.

Have I been harassed by countless supervisors without cause? Have I been inappropriately or unjustly treated for years on end without any resolution despite recorded pleads for cessation?

Has my family, culture, race or gender been so grossly discriminated against to the point of being labeled hate crimes?

It happens. Even now and in our current fire service. Although I have seen much less occurrences since 1983. Not being classified as a minority allows me access into the circle of bad jokes and slurs.

Obviously, litigation is not a route that anyone who loves their organization and the fire service itself would want to pursue. It makes us all look bad.
But let us not judge an individual based upon litigation since we have not walked the long mileage of issues involved in their case.

I believe that Medic301 posed the question based upon suing in order to gain employment.

We have diverted from the primary focus of this thread. But I know that is not hard to do.:rolleyes:

[Ash702]

I'm gonna sue all the departments I didn't get hired with over the years that I was testing. Then I'm gonna sue departments that were only accepting laterals and I couldn't test for. Then I'm gonna sue drama911 because I feel like it! And I'm gonna sue FatCobra for 15 transports and making me have to run my a$$ off all day on the engine!!!
Starting to sound ridiculous? Work hard. Do your best on promotional tests and entrance exams. You WILL succeed if you try long enough. I got passed over by a department in the 909 that I already was working for, as a reserve, for FREE. Now I don't wanna say any names (rhymns with Tialto) but now I'm grateful I didn't get hired there and got picked up here in Vegas. It all works out in the end with hard work and perseverance (spell checked that one!) If you gotta sue to get the job, maybe you just aren't good enough for the job (yet).

[chainsaw5vent]

Many years ago, i filed a grievance (which was denied) against the big city for the testing process. during the halyard/ladder raise which i had observed others completing during my group, the halyard 'got stuck' (stopped) about 2 feet away from the top during the 3rd and final raising. hhmmm?!*&!!wtf!!! the halyard had run butter smooth on the first 2 attempts so i kept on trying to get the halyard past the 'locking mechanism' eventually to the point of using my bodyweight to help yank the halyard to NO avail.
i, along with nearly 50% of my group discovered the same issue. the strange thing was, nobody had any sticking issues during the first pull, rarely during the second pull, but mostly during the 3rd pull. after watching others fail, several of those remaining complained to the proctors about the equipment. they told us to go to the other side of the tower while they 'tested' (snickered) the equipment. once done, we were allowed back to complete (fail) the event and go home.:mad:

the one i should have pursued was complete with evidence. i had entered into the hiring process w/ another socal f/d and pretty much had the job locked up. during the medical they discovered a problem, i was 'overweight' for the height standard. you know the maximum a 5' 10" man should weigh is 185-189 lbs.:cool: i was at 240 but into power lifting and cycling.
over the next 2 months i dropped down to 216-220 range (back into my 33/34" levi 501's). my bodyfat % dropped from 22% to holding steady at the 14-15% range (as measured by the 1 fitness specialist at LLUMC on 5 different tests using the pinch AND hydrostatic weighing ):D
but during that same period, according to the super department, even though i had lost 20+ lbs. their testers (5 different people on 5 different occassions) told me i was going up in bodyfat %. ultimately ending up at 30%.
i could have filed a LHP style lawsuit and gotten the job or $$$ simply based on the fact that i had a PROFESSIONAL evaluation done by the same person each time using the accepted standard (even today 20 years later) compared to the 5 different people doing the evaluation plus the senior tester who wasn't going to go against what his poorly trained health clinic people were doing.
i thought better of it and decided that it wasn't worth my time. i probably should have pushed it just to make them clean up their silly testing process. i had the evidence that their system of using untrained technicians was inadequate.

but i really love where i work now. we have GREAT PEOPLE, good equipment soon to get really good!!, great schedule 48/96, 25 min drive to work in the OPPOSITE direction (hahaha!!), run amazing calls and amount of fires (waiting for the foreclosures and boardups to kick in.) that most other f/f's only 'badge and bar' polish.:D

[firemedic301]

Red you are so right.
I have never cared how a person gets a job or a promotion; I have only cared what they have done once they have it. And that’s the way it should be.


Or at least that is my opinion


That is where I totally disagree with that statement!!! I personally care alot that the right person is hired for the Job from the start. NOT because they couldn't pass the BASIC test and then they file letigation against the dept. to be GIVEN the Job.

[trkmant46]

Firemedic301, I totally agree with you. We all should care about how someone gets the job or promotion. I really hate when guys get promoted strictly because they wore knee pads!! oh crap did i say that!
Remember, these people that get promoted that really shouldn't have, can make some deadly mistakes causing injury or death to FF's!

As for promotions, I believe a person with experience (greater than 5 yrs), that has taken the appropriate courses related to the position that they are aspiring to promote into, along with passing the test, should get the job. However with that said, just because someone takes the courses, passes the test and has experience doesn't make them "qualified". I believe their character, decision making skills under pressure and actually doing the job prior, should be taken into account as well.
And for the new people trying to get hired, if they can't pass the standard entrance exam, sorry. Move on and try again later!
Just a thought

[F-Dub]

I agree with you too Firemedic301. However its not worth getting upset about there is nothing any one of us can do about it. Lets just take the time to make sure those individuals that may have gotten there jobs in a questionable manner get the best training we can give them. Who knows maybe they will turn out to be great employees and we will be glad that they are here.

[fatcobra]

Ok so after reading some of the rebuttals to my comment about how one gets a position I would like to make add something to it. I can see how it was misconstrued by those that have read it thus far. I need to add a few stipulations to my previous comments.

So, what I will say is yes each person has to pass to a competent level to get a job or to get on a promotional list. I can’t speak to all, but to the major metro departments I have access to, the human resource departments do a fairly good job of getting minimally qualified candidates, whether it is for promotion or for open hire processes.

It would be grossly incorrect to state that “juice” (as Vegas calls it) or hookups do not occur during both the open and promotional processes but I have only really experienced it when you have two or more qualified persons going for the same job. Now, the one that is more qualified my not get the job/promotion, but per HR, the candidates all met the minimum qualifications.

Sorry for my confusion
:)

[Johnny on the spot]

EVERYBODY seems to say they do not approve of suing your department unless it is for something "legit"... but what IS legit? Of all of the firefighter related lawsuits I have heard/read about, it appears that only 10% of them would meet MY definition of "legit". Maybe 20-30% meet your definition... i dont know.

What I do know is that some pencil pushing IVY league number cruncher that works for a city is asked to punch the numbers once a lawsuit is filed. He/she then tells the city that it will cost the city 25% more money if they dont settle and lose the case, so the city settles to save time, money and bad publicity.

They rollover, then the next person (lately with 2 "X" chromosones), knows if they file a lawsuit (regardless of its validity) it will most likely settle at around 60-70% of the asking price. so this person sues and wins because the city settles, again... but everybody loses= The citizens, the city, the department, the "brotherhood" and moral.

eat dog food, or don't get along with your coworkers, or suck at your job.... then sue and get money. so lame.

[firemedic301]

FINALLY somebody not afraid to call it like it is!!!!! You hit the nail on the head.

[sansoofireman]

What about all of the idiots that are already on the job that sue? You know, the ones that have psychological issues and cry like a baby when their feelings get hurt? The ones that put themselves above their job? The ones that have a sense of entitlement and get all booboo-faced when something gets taken away from them? The ones that are about to get punished and start throwing people under the bus because they're trying to put up a smoke-screen? Need I go on?

We all know the type. There's one in every department. Three or four in mine...

And for the sake of trying to be solution-oriented, how can admin improve themselves to better handle these idiots? Like they don't have a hard enough job trying to run a fire department, they have to deal with member-on-member issues all of the time...

[chainsaw5vent]

And for the sake of trying to be solution-oriented, how can admin improve themselves to better handle these idiots? Like they don't have a hard enough job trying to run a fire department, they have to deal with member-on-member issues all of the time...[/QUOTE]


why don't we try a little 'celebrity death match' action? it would probably resolve the issues 'sue-ner' w/o as much money being dispensed.
:p:cool::rolleyes:

[sansoofireman]

I'm surprised that the WASTE OF MONEY thread got taken off the site and this one still lives on. Hopefully it wasn't under threat of a lawsuit!

Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.......

[Chile]

SANSOO..... "Waste of money" had become too personalized to benefit anyone. For the most part, this thread has stayed pretty general to "lawsuits".

There are dozens of suits going on in the state at the moment, so FIREMEDIC301 and all parties that responded to this thread have not tarnished any one department in particular. :)

[sansoofireman]

Point taken.

Most of us don't want to give you a headache when you do this for free. We appreciate the outlet.

[Johnny on the spot]

Point taken.

Most of us don't want to give you a headache when you do this for free. We appreciate the outlet.

I like to give Chile headaches.

[HB of CJ]

Hello...I'm the old new guy. Fifty nine. Long retired EN from then a Class One Department. New to this board and forum. Five miles to the right of Attila the Hun.

Wow!! What has happend to all of these new men/er persons? Perhaps we ought to direct the Fire Service to more of a military making. Yeah. Military code of justice.

You *BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP**BLEEP*, you get 30 in the stockade. Sue? You got to be kidding. At least right now you can still vote with your feet. Can't or don't like the heat? Get out of the job. :) :) :)